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Section 59 issued - do I have a clear case of ageism?
Callump
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:40
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Hello,

Earlier this evening I was issued a Section 59 notice by Gwent Police - supposedly this was for making too much noise in an open car park and "driving too quickly" whilst finding a parking spot in the officers personal opinion. I was very polite with the officer (Yes sir, no sir) and did not argue my case in any way, shape or form as I didn't want to make things worse for me. This is the first time I have ever been stopped by the police, let alone been in the back of their car.

Whilst the officer was taking my license and insurance details, he made the remark (and this is a direct quote) - "Nothing in life gives me more pleasure than taking your age group off the road." - is this remark not a clear cut case of age discrimination given he was recorded saying it by in-car footage and his bodycam? It really struck a nerve with me, given how hard I work for my car. The officer also had said that he wanted to "make an example of me" and so was issuing a Section 59 and will crush my car if it happens again within a year.

As far as I am aware these notices are impossible to retract and I am now very paranoid that I would be able to insure my car in the next few months as I believe this has to be declared? The car itself was already very difficult to insure given the model.

The officer had said that I had revved the vehicle to cause a disruption. My vehicle is a 2018 Audi RS 3 and so is a DSG automatic; when I change down a gear, it will automatically blip the throttle to rev match the gear for a smoother transition... the exhaust on my vehicle is also completely stock, as is the rest of the parts.

Do I have any recourse here? I am aware that the Section 59 cannot be reversed, however at the very least I would like to see if anything can be done about the officers comments. I have completely lost faith in the police given this first encounter with them... and I even work with them on a daily basis!

Any advice would be hugely appreciated here. Would persuing this be in vain?

Thanks,

Callum
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post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:40
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cp8759
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:45
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Well for starters they can't crush your car no matter how many section 59s you get, even if the car is towed because you get another s59, all you do is go to the pound and pick it up. As for the officer's comments, while they do appear unprofessional, they do not make the s59 unlawful.

If his bodycam was recording, you could make a formal complaint about his unprofessional remarks, but even if the compliant is founded all that'll happen is he will be given words of advice. The s59 will not be impacted.


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Callump
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:49
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:45) *
Well for starters they can't crush your car no matter how many section 59s you get, even if the car is towed because you get another s59, all you do is go to the pound and pick it up. As for the officer's comments, while they do appear unprofessional, they do not make the s59 unlawful.

If his bodycam was recording, you could make a formal complaint about his unprofessional remarks, but even if the compliant is founded all that'll happen is he will be given words of advice. The s59 will not be impacted.


Thank you very much. I will get a formal complaint lodged for his comments but wont bother chasing a revert on the s59. I couldn't believe how unprofessional this officer was.

Does a s59 need to be declared to insurance? That is what I am most concerned about.
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cp8759
post Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:59
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QUOTE (Callump @ Sun, 30 Dec 2018 - 22:49) *
Does a s59 need to be declared to insurance? That is what I am most concerned about.

It only needs to be declared if they ask you. If they don't mention it, there is no longer a positive obligation on you to volunteer this information.


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emsgeorge
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 00:12
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Not forgetting of course, the context in which he said the remark ……….

Nothing gives me more pleasure than to take your age group off the road, as statistically your age group causes the most fatalities, both to yourselves and others. I don't want to be having to tell your parents that you are dead. So, calm it down and drive sensibly young man.

Sounds just like traffic wold say. Of course, if you edit it to just say the first bit, sounds like he's picking on you.

Offended at being told the truth ?

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peterguk
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 00:19
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Can you think of any reason why he singled you out of all the drivers in the car park?


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thisisntme
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 01:17
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QUOTE (emsgeorge @ Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 00:12) *
Not forgetting of course, the context in which he said the remark ……….

Nothing gives me more pleasure than to take your age group off the road, as statistically your age group causes the most fatalities, both to yourselves and others. I don't want to be having to tell your parents that you are dead. So, calm it down and drive sensibly young man.

Sounds just like traffic wold say. Of course, if you edit it to just say the first bit, sounds like he's picking on you.

Offended at being told the truth ?


I thought the principle here was that we give OPs the benefit of the doubt unless there are grounds for believing otherwise. What do you know that we don't? I'm intrigued.


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Callump
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 02:20
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 00:19) *
Can you think of any reason why he singled you out of all the drivers in the car park?


Perhaps a 22 y/o with a very young face driving a £60k vehicle may look somewhat suspicious to him and he was looking for a reason to pull me aside and have a nose (checked my metal pressed plate had the stamp and whatnot) - it's a very loud car as standard unfortunately so does tend to draw some looks from the constabulary.

As long as the s59 wont affect my insurance (providing they don't ask) then I don't really mind at having one for a year.
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Spinstorm
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 02:49
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I have a 2018 RS3 and I know it’s loud - if I am driving in dynamic - which I admit is the most fun to drive.

But I also am very careful about driving with it on dynamic near a police officer. I don’t want to be giving them any excuse to pull me over so if I see one I make sure I put it into auto and drive very considerately.

I would suggest your best course of action is to do the same. Be aware of what’s happening around you. I find lots of drivers don’t seem to be aware. I haven’t had any issues for years with the police (and even when I had issues it was cameras not police cars) and that’s from driving considerately in built up areas and no making more noise than is needed.

That doesn’t mean I don’t put it in dynamic and overtake every slow person I see - I just chose when and how I enjoy my car.
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The Rookie
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 07:15
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If you’re driving amounts to careless or inconsiderate driving AND is likely to cause aggravation or annoyance then an S59 Notice is warranted, driving with the exhaust in dynamic unnecessarily in a residential place could tick both boxes without you doing anything else.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2002/30/section/59

You can always use individual mode to tone it down and get the other bits you like.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 11:25


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notmeatloaf
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 11:18
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Got to say as someone still (relatively) young I don't see much of an issue with the remark. Simple fact is most antisocial driving is done by young men. Most antisocial riding is done by middle aged men. Most dozy driving is done by Doris and co.

The remark didn't appear targeted at you - "you and your age group". It was poorly phrased and mildly unprofessional, but then police pretty sensibly target various groups. There is a twisty, quick road near me and it's not unusual to see an unmarked car doing good business with bikers.

Having again been stopped as a young lad in my souped up Ford Escort in Tescos my advice would be if you are going through the gears you are probably going too fast anyway in a car park. Fairly or unfairly if you are young in a nice car then you will attract attention for spirited driving, and S59s are notoriously difficult to argue against.

This post has been edited by notmeatloaf: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 11:19
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Darkatmosphere
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 12:58
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The only official rout to "appeal" and its not even that really its a "review", is a "judicial review", and I must warn you it is expensive to have a judicial review conducted in a high court, here is the crux, the case is usually deemed disproportionate to the prevailing circumstances and mostly a waste of money. So what next? well you have the option to write a nicely worded letter to Chief Superintendent Marc Budden, It would also be helpful to him if he had evidence of your driving before you were stopped, such as store external CCTV or County Council footage, if you believe you did nothing out of sorts to warrant the S59 then he is the one to drop it upon your plea's and evidence, as he is head of neighbourhood policing or hand it down to be looked at.

Gwent Police don't take too kindly to any messing about in a car park, any loud car in a car park is anti social in their opinion standard or modified, as the force area has been blighted by "boy racers" for 40yrs, Blackwood Caerphilly County most notably, and as such Gwent Police has been on the hot poker end from residents and the local media for a number of years now, so they are stern, hard and harsh when they encounter someone they deem to fit to have a S59.

EDIT: I would get yourself a dashcam from here on out, you're going attract attention with the car wanted or unwanted, but at least there will evidence of no wrong doings or even wrong doings, but video don't lie and your looking for being treated fairly.



This post has been edited by Darkatmosphere: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 15:01


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mickR
post Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 13:37
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QUOTE (thisisntme @ Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 01:17) *
QUOTE (emsgeorge @ Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 00:12) *
Not forgetting of course, the context in which he said the remark ……….

Nothing gives me more pleasure than to take your age group off the road, as statistically your age group causes the most fatalities, both to yourselves and others. I don't want to be having to tell your parents that you are dead. So, calm it down and drive sensibly young man.

Sounds just like traffic wold say. Of course, if you edit it to just say the first bit, sounds like he's picking on you.

Offended at being told the truth ?


I thought the principle here was that we give OPs the benefit of the doubt unless there are grounds for believing otherwise. What do you know that we don't? I'm intrigued.


Me too.
So emsgeorge were you a witness?
can you give us the link to the dash cam or bodycam footage you've seen?
Or are you the s59 issuing officer in question?

I'm not a fan of police officers who try to intimidate youngsters with serious threats unless they are completely warranted since my son was threatened with confiscation of his brand new car because he was "in the area of a planned meet"
The comments of the officer in the OP's case to my mind were unnecessary, unprofessional and boarder intimidation.

This post has been edited by mickR: Mon, 31 Dec 2018 - 13:39
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Mat_Shamus
post Tue, 1 Jan 2019 - 01:49
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One of the problems with "sporty" or performance cars is that they usually have a bit more grunt from them noise wise either from the exhaust or the induction side.

So where as someone could be accelerating or de-accelerating quickly in their Prius in a car park not as many (if anyone) will notice as the car is very quiet and doesn't attract attention.

But to people that don't know any better, even normal acceleration or deceleration, especially with DSG can give them the perception you're driving quicky or erratically even when you're not.

Sadly it's an uphill struggle to have an S59 retracted. I would lodge an official complaint though just to explain what really happened and consider installing a dashcam for the future. It's not always people involved in car accidents who can accuse you of things you didn't do.


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Callump
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 02:37
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Quick update with this one - after going through the complaints process, two weeks later I had a call from a Sergeant at Gwent Police who was a very nice chap and notified me that he reviewed the footage and has ensured the section 59 notice was reversed.

Although I was given the option to persue this further with the IOPC, I decided to thank my luck it was reversed and move on.

Thank you very much for your advice everyone.

This post has been edited by Callump: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 02:40
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Unzippy
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 03:32
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The Rookie
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 06:31
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Well done, shows that the calm and mature approach is often the best way forward.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Council PCN's
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Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
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Darkatmosphere
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:45
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QUOTE (Callump @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 02:37) *
Quick update with this one - after going through the complaints process, two weeks later I had a call from a Sergeant at Gwent Police who was a very nice chap and notified me that he reviewed the footage and has ensured the section 59 notice was reversed.

Although I was given the option to persue this further with the IOPC, I decided to thank my luck it was reversed and move on.

Thank you very much for your advice everyone.

IOPC would have been a pointless exercise, and would have automatically favoured the police on this one.

Glad it worked out for you.


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