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Mobile Vans - LTi 20-20 Speedscope, The most commonly used mobile speed camera
Mika
post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 09:14
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This link will take you to a page which explains the information that appears on the LTi 20-20 Lastec traffic videos.

UPDATE 21st January 2009

Motorist beats 98mph charge

UPDATE 7th February 2007

MCN has the following.

QUOTE
Frank Garratt admitted the speed meter can make a host of errors including ‘slip’ error.


UPDATE 12th September

BBC Inside Out broadcast a follow-up program about the accuracy of the LTi 20-20 and a RealPlayer video of the relevant part of the programme is available for download here (38Mb).

There is a lower resolution WMV file available here. (3.68Mb)

There is also an article about this program on the BBC Inside Out Website.

Inside Out – BBC South West: Monday February 28, 2005:

NOTE A 16Mb RealPlayer clip from the programme, can be downloaded from this link.

“Mobile speed cameras are increasingly being used by the police to enforce speed limits, but how accurate are they?

We look at these cameras and see if their claims of accuracy are themselves accurate.

You may also find this recent Wiltshire case of interest - the Crown dropped the charge, rather than disclosing the traffic video.

Watch the video in this case carefully and decide for yourself. Did the motorcycle decelerate from 107 mph to 87 mph, without braking?

You may also find this US case of interest – “Laser Loses a Legal Test

We can also provide the recording as a SVCD, which will play in most DVD players.

The result of the case was as follows:

Guilty of travelling at 107 mph

Disqualified from driving for 28 days

£500 fine and £1000 costs - the prosecution asked for £2000 costs.

The defendant couldn't afford to go to appeal and in any case, at the time, Mr Garrett was the only recognised "expert" on the LTi 20/20 in this country. That may have changed now. icon_wink.gif


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post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 09:14
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sjpage
post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 14:40
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Wow!
that to me, proves beyond any doubt that it sure is a dodgy scope

I hope you can prove this in court mika

you wouldnt think it would be that difficult with that video, but then we are dealing with the law !

is there anything the motorcyclist could do now to reclaim his losses or we can do to reclaim ours if (when) you win ?
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Mika
post Wed, 25 Feb 2004 - 14:56
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Stef,

Yes, we believe that we can prove it, but whether or not a British Court will take any notice is another matter. This may have to go ‘all the way’ to Strasburg.

Put it like this, once the doctor’s report is published, there shouldn’t be any more arguments in court about why you need a copy of the traffic video in your case:

“Have you read this?” icon_eek.gif

And Yes, I think that there could be something that the motorcycle rider, and everyone else that can be bothered, may be able to do regarding redress.

You shouldn’t underestimate how serious this could be.


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The Rookie
post Tue, 2 Mar 2004 - 13:17
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Just had a good look, its obvious that after the truck has cleared the dodgy scope has a problem with the motorbike and getting a bounce back in front of a moving car, at a range where not all the laser light will be stopped by the bike, but some will bypass it and hit the car, couldn't freeze frame with my viewer but wouldn't be surprised to see the range go funny as well!, Why is no aiming 'pip' transfered to the video, you have to stop and check the X-hairs!

Simon
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dave99
post Tue, 9 Mar 2004 - 18:06
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sounds like fun - what exactly is a "mention hearing"?
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FastShow
post Thu, 11 Mar 2004 - 19:28
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Did anyone get a chance to drop in?
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jeffreyarcher
post Sat, 13 Mar 2004 - 02:03
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Probably old hat to the experts here, however, just in case, see: http://www.geocities.com/speeding@sbcgloba.../lidarcase.html
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Boro
post Tue, 16 Mar 2004 - 15:59
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That makes interesting reading, how old is it? Has anyone questioned the LTi 20/20 to that extent in the UK?
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cas
post Wed, 17 Mar 2004 - 16:59
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any update to this?
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Mika
post Wed, 17 Mar 2004 - 17:34
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Hi,

The LTi 20-20 appeal is listed at Cardiff Crown Court on Tuesday 20th April, for an all day hearing, and it is not to be missed. biggrin.gif


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cas
post Wed, 17 Mar 2004 - 17:57
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Mika - if the appeal goes the wrong way, does that mean the CPS will start sending out the videos and asking for them to be disclosed will no longer work as a method to get a speeding charge dropped on no case to answer?
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Kevin Green
post Thu, 8 Apr 2004 - 00:32
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Hello there,

Before I go to Court tomorrow to defend HAVING to speed up I can tell you I managed to get my Video tape after mega fuss! The CPS even told me that someone from their office stole it! Nice try! laugh.gif I sacked my Lawyer and will argue myself. No good me trying to change the law on the LTi as its too late for me but if my Video does any good to you good people out there it is yours!

P.S, will tell you all if I did get justice later today....

Kev
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cas
post Thu, 8 Apr 2004 - 12:29
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Kevin did you get it at least 7 days before trial?
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Kevin Green
post Thu, 8 Apr 2004 - 12:47
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Yes,

I phoned the CPS myself and they tried to send it to my Lawyer who I then sacked. They sent it in plenty of time but the fun thing was today, that they presented an entirely different version of events! Their tape made it look totally restrictive and showed naff all about the cause for speeding. I lost by the way as I expected and was walloped with a massive £200 for a first offence of 41 in a 30 zone on a dual carraigeway by the way! I will be appealing but I have to tell you that going in front of the muppets in a magistrates is a waste of time. The only way you are going to win is on appeal when you are talking to a Judge who likes to know what he's on about! By the way, you can use http://www.acpo.police.uk/policies/rpet_co..._update_v21.pdf as an aid in defense as the coppers NEVER write down the evidence they are supposed to! I found that out today. I only lost because of my arrogant attitude and I concede to that. But the prosecutor was a prick and it was either hit the mother or talk in a bad mood :x

I'm gonna win the appeal no doubt as I am prepared to pay for it but can wait til the 20th and visit Cardiff as it is down the road. Gonna jump for Joy as there is no question as to the falibility of the video evidence. WAY FLAWED!

K
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Traffic Cop
post Sat, 10 Apr 2004 - 10:45
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Kevin Green posted

The only way you are going to win is on appeal when you are talking to a Judge who likes to know what he's on about! By the way, you can use http://www.acpo.police.uk/policies/rpet_co..._update_v21.pdf as an aid in defense as the coppers NEVER write down the evidence they are supposed to!

One thing to pointout is that ACPO policy is not law! If a police officer does not follow a Policy, it does not mean that you are off the hook. Policy is there to advise, NOT a set of rules that MUST be followed.


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Mika
post Sat, 10 Apr 2004 - 11:35
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Traffic Cop,

Whilst I agree that in theory the ACOP code is not legally binding; one may be able to make a compelling argument that the current version is in fact “the Condition of Type Approval” that is referred to in the law.

On Page 3 of the ACPO Code, the Chief Constable of the North Wales Police and Head of the ACPO Road Policing Business Area, stresses the importance of the ACPO Code:

The Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 required the Home Office Type Approval of evidential radar speed meters. The Road Traffic Act 1991 expanded this provision to allow for the type approval of other devices used in the enforcement of road traffic law.

While Type Approval provides an assurance of the technical accuracy and reliability of a device, devices do need to be properly used. Reliance on instructions from manufacturers alone is insufficient to protect evidential integrity and therefore the Police, in consultation with the Home Office Police Scientific Development Branch (PSDB), have laid down operational standards.

The devices referred to in this Code of Practice, although the subject of rigorous field and laboratory testing, are only as reliable as the user. It is imperative that the procedures set out in this Manual are applied scrupulously – each link in the evidential chain is of importance, and upon its careful application lays the integrity of the Police Service.

These standards are in your hands
.”

Can you make it to Cardiff Crown Court on the 20th? icon_wink.gif


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Kevin Green
post Sat, 10 Apr 2004 - 12:54
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I understand that the ACPO Code is not quintessentially legally binding but if the recommendations were not enforcable in a Court of Law and the recomendations not adopted by the Courts it would be fair to say that the ACPO Code is a waste of time and we could question WHY is the panel in existence? The ACPO Code is deemed as the "Experts" guide and, as most Magistrates 'Muppets' are far from experts, as was evident in my own case, these guidelines simply have to be followed? The argument that I pose on speeding is the 'Mens Reus' or 'Intent' of the offence which in law HAS to be present for an offence to take place. The simply fact of the 'Actus Reus' the 'ACT' of the offence being evident is not sufficient and cannot be relied upon. Because the Radar/Laser only picks up the 'ACT' and not the cause or 'REASON' is why the ACPO Code is in place. They recognise that there is often a reason behind speeding and thus advise that evidence of the offence MUST be supported by observation.

That is why I most definately will be in Cardiff! I have already put my towel on the seat I chose! I have also held back my appeal until then for obvious reasons! icon_idea.gif Look out for the Big Bald man in a suit, "A bit like Willy Thorne the snooker player!" That will be me! 8)

P.S. Your forum is exceptional and your cause even better, I own The Orange Pages and will be making my many followers wise to this forum! icon_wink.gif

Yours,
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davleigh
post Mon, 12 Apr 2004 - 19:24
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I hope you don't mean this... http://www.orange-pages.fsnet.co.uk/
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jeffreyarcher
post Mon, 12 Apr 2004 - 21:44
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QUOTE (davleigh)
I hope you don't mean this...http://www.orange-pages.fsnet.co.uk/

Hehe.
If you look under the tab on his posts, you'll find that it's these orange pages.
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Kevin Green
post Mon, 12 Apr 2004 - 22:09
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laugh.gif

Sorry, I certainly don't and the only reason we havn't closed it down for infringement is the possible consequences! icon_cry.gif

No I am fortunate to own www.cantufind.com better known as The Orange Pages.com I genuinely think your forum is one of the most productive of forums I have had the pleasure to read. The topics are/is meaningful and dealt with in an Adult fashion. There is very little abuse or tasteless repost even though the subject matter warrants such. I know I had the £200 fine!

I genuinely say in my position of CEO of my Group of search engines and directories that you should be proud of your quest for justice and the very adept way you use your skills and the power of the web to cross reference. There is a powerful tool at your hands and I am only to happy to be part of that. I will indeed be in Cardiff on the 20th and have also held back on my appeal for the outcome, one challenge I make that is ignored on speeding is that the victim is almost certainly being Blackmailed into accepting the "Offer" of a fixed fine and points knowing that if they dare contest the so far "uncontestable" they face a far heftier penalty as did I. I might just choose to go to Jail for my beliefs if I lose my appeal for whislt I am all for safety measures I am as eqally against a revenue generating process and illegal method of implimenting such. Perhaps we could open a new forum then, 'Free Kevin Campaign'. laugh.gif

Right I will get of my high horse for new and hope to speak soon. Are you going to Cardiff yourself?

Regards,

K
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