Barnet - stopped in a YBJ, Can you help my sister? |
Barnet - stopped in a YBJ, Can you help my sister? |
Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:22
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Hello - you kindly helped one of my sisters a few months ago when she parked with two wheels on the pavement in Barnet (won at tribunal with assistance from Mr Mustard). Now another sister has been in touch with me as she has had a penalty letter through the post in respect of stopping in a yellow box junction, also in Barnet.
So far all I have is a link to the video which I have posted on youtube: https://youtu.be/BeA-e5ctnK8 According to my sister, she was waiting in the side road for the traffic to start moving. She then pulled in only when this starts to occur (you can see the brake lights of the traffic queuing ahead go off supporting this). Arguably she might have been poking slightly into the YBJ for a few seconds had she got there, however at the same time a van on the other side of the junction makes the same manoeuvre. They both head for the right hand lane and there is only space for one of them and she gives way to the van (I can only assume out of courtesy, or because it was a bigger more imposing vehicle than hers!). This is a mistake as she is then forced to stop in the box junction, although ironically she was blocking nobody in doing so while the van would have blocked the other carriageway for longer if she had been more assertive. In hindsight she could also have taken the spot in the first lane which would have avoided stopping in the YBJ, but perhaps she needed to be in the right hand lane (I don't know). I saw another thread on here not that long ago, in Hammersmith I think, where the OP got caught in a box junction turning in from a side road which seemed to be designed to prevent cars on the main road blocking the side road entrance, a little like this one. Surely (one of) the function(s) of this box junction is to give cars turning left a chance to turn onto this busy road? Had my sister not turned in when she did, she would have struggled to get into that lane at all as by the time the white van had completed its turn the traffic queued up behind the box junction on the main road would have started moving forward. This pattern could be repeated ad infinitum if there is always a vehicle on the other side of the junction wanting to turn right into that lane. I've asked her to send me the correspondence from Barnet and I'll post it up as soon as I get it. In the meantime I would value any thoughts on the likelihood of winning based on the video evidence. She has told me she has 14 days from 6 April to pay at the reduced £65 rate. Many thanks. This post has been edited by MrChips: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 09:40 |
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:22
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:35
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Upload all sides of the PCN please.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:38
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Barnet's PCN's have a fault. that can win. we need to see it
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 10:43
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Thanks both - as soon as I have it, I'll post it up.
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 11:59
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Here is a streetview of the location:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.618259,-0...3312!8i6656 And here is the correspondence from Barnet: |
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 15:14
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Pending thoughts from others, one thing in the PCN is puzzling me. On the first page, it says the discount is available until the end of the 14th day from the date of the notice (i.e. 19th April). On the payment slip, it says the discount is available until the 14th day from when the notice is served. From reading a few posts on this forum over the years, isn't the date of service assumed to be two working days after the date of the notice, i.e. 10 April (which is the actual date the letter arrived), in which case the discount period runs to 23rd April.
Which is it?? |
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 18:16
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Pending thoughts from others, one thing in the PCN is puzzling me. On the first page, it says the discount is available until the end of the 14th day from the date of the notice (i.e. 19th April). On the payment slip, it says the discount is available until the 14th day from when the notice is served. From reading a few posts on this forum over the years, isn't the date of service assumed to be two working days after the date of the notice, i.e. 10 April (which is the actual date the letter arrived), in which case the discount period runs to 23rd April. Which is it?? The regs say date of notice. That it is different on the payment slip might help, but the high court ruled that the payment slip is not part of the PCN, so while worth mentioning its not strong What is stronger is paragraph 3 of the PCN. You can make reps til 28 days from date of service and they cannot issue a charge cert til then either but they say the can 28 days from date of notice depriving you of two days. Appeals have won on this -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 19:24
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
For the alleged contravention on its own, I don't think your sister would win on this. The video shows she drove into the box when the traffic was stationary and there was no space to take her vehicle on the other side of the box. The van then pulled out, but did not enter the box. The flaw in the PCN may well win, but only at adjudication as Barnet are unlikely to admit their PCN is flawed. Going to adjudication means the full PCN penalty is in play, not the discounted amount. Most people just cough-up to avoid the possibility of having to pay the full penalty, not being experienced in the law relating to content of PCNs, (unlike us on this forum !!). So Barnet just carry on with their flawed PCNs , because they just ignore what adjudicators say about their PCNs and there are no penalties in them for doing so. Good law it isn't, in fact as the Beadle said in "Oliver Twist" - "the law is a ass, sir"
This post has been edited by Incandescent: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 - 19:26 |
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 07:26
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Thanks guys. We'll definitely appeal within the discount period on the strength of the technicality, but won't expect Barnet to accept it.
On the video, I'm biased of course. The contravention is to enter the box and stop due to the presence of stationary vehicles. My sister stopped due to the sudden presence of this van which wasn't there when she started her manoeuvre and wasn't stationary. It is definitely arguable that had the van not suddenly arrived she might not have been able to get completely across the junction anyway, we'll never know. Maybe she would have been just poking on it enough to be a de minimis offence, maybe she would have been completely on the box junction. I know the van does not actually enter the junction itself but it's a natural reaction when a vehicle (especially a big one) is coming towards you to stop and give way. For me it is anyway! Also, the period she is completely stopped is only about 4-5 seconds (from around 6 seconds to around 11 seconds on the youtube video) - is there scope for a de minimis defence on that basis? After 11 seconds on the video she begins to creep forward again which as I understand it doesn't constitute an offence. Thanks! |
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 09:34
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
You always have the right to get the circumstances shown on the video tested at London Tribunals. Only thing is this is with the full PCN amount in play. Opinion here so far is that it would be a gamble, but it is your sister's money and her decision in the end.
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Fri, 13 Apr 2018 - 09:35
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Fully understood. I've been through the process a couple of times myself (and won thanks to the assistance available here) so am coming at this with eyes open.
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 09:27
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Quick question - what is the last day by which an informal challenge needs to be submitted to protect the 50% discount?
The PCN says the discount runs to the 14th day from the date of notice (i.e. 19 April). The payment slip and Barnet PCN website say the discount runs to the 14th day from date of service (23 April). https://www.barnet.gov.uk/citizen-home/park...ing-tickets-pcn If we were to make an informal representation on, say, 21 April, would they have to reoffer the discount? |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 09:56
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,066 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, you're getting overconfident.
You posted: '...I'm coming at this with my eyes open..' and then ask about the latest date for submission of informal reps to a postal PCN!!! The reps are formal, there is no informal step. And as regards 'eyes open..' I'm afraid your sibling sympathy and personal empathy are blinding you: your sister stopped because she could not exit the box due to the presence of a stationary vehicle outside, nowt to do with the incoming van. We do not have both her and the driver of incoming van saying 'after you, no, after you' while there was a vacant space outside the box. |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 10:04
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 7,235 Joined: 5 Jan 2007 From: England Member No.: 9,919 |
And as regards 'eyes open..' I'm afraid your sibling sympathy and personal empathy are blinding you: your sister stopped because she could not exit the box due to the presence of a stationary vehicle outside, nowt to do with the incoming van. My thoughts entirely. |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 10:07
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
Sorry - by eyes open I meant I realise we don't seem to have a slam dunk win here and should we not take the 50% discount offer we are risking the full amount. I did not mean that I know all the ins and outs of the deadlines and process, or what factors are likely to lead to this being overturned (is a stop of less than 5 seconds in de minimis territory for example). Or that I am unbiased (to the contrary, I admit that I am in an earlier post!).
I am neither confident nor unconfident, just want to know what the latest date is we can submit a challenge and Barnet will have to reoffer the discount should they turn down the representation. Is it the end of the discount period (in which case of the two dates that they have indicated, which should we trust?), or 14 days from the date of notice irrespective of the end of the discount period? |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 10:12
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The 14 day discount period expired yesterday, They do not have to reoffer the discount, but may do
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 11:51
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
As it's a long box it's easier to wait for a slot from the side road. In some short boxes it can be harder. In long boxes it's the drivers on the main road who risk people nipping out of the side road taking their place.
I would still appeal this though. |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 13:32
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
The 14 day discount period expired yesterday, They do not have to reoffer the discount, but may do Now I'm getting really confused. Does the letter not say that the discount runs until 14 days from the date of notice (which is 6 April 2018, not 31 March 2018)? |
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 14:15
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The 14 day discount period expired yesterday, They do not have to reoffer the discount, but may do Now I'm getting really confused. Does the letter not say that the discount runs until 14 days from the date of notice (which is 6 April 2018, not 31 March 2018)? your right, I couldn't see it properly -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sat, 14 Apr 2018 - 14:31
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#20
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,120 Joined: 10 Jul 2009 Member No.: 30,237 |
No problem, thanks for confirming.
I'm still unsure when the latest is that we can appeal and retain the 50% discount if we are refused. Is anyone able to confirm? Is it: 1) no later than 14 days from the date of the notice; or 2) the end of the 14 day discount period (which seems to be 4 calendar days later on the basis of Barnet's own website)? The PCN also says if my sister "writes to them" within 14 days of the date of the notice then Barnet will reoffer the discount. I interpret this as saying she could write to them (and post 1st class) on 19 April, which would then be deemed to be served by 23 April, so this is the deadline for representations to be received to keep the discount in play. Is that correct? |
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