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Ealing Council - CPZ fines
question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:43
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Hello people,

Last week I received a new parking fine (3rd one this year) which I have appealed and has since been rejected.

This time they say its because I parked for longer than 30 minutes in the space I was in.
I have been parking in exactly the same spot every day since April/May when I received the first 2 tickets and they told me to download the map of the CPZ to see where I’m allowed to park. The first 2 tickets from April/May is when the CPZ were first introduced to my area. I bought a permit right away and continued to park in the same place I had parked for the last 8 years which is the closest space to my flat. However they were rejected, because my permit doesn't allow me to park near my flat, but up the road over by the next estate. This wasn't made clear to me at the time. When they rejected both appeals (2 tickets from the same space within 3 days as had not moved/used the car), they told me I should have checked my Permit number on the website to see where my permit covers and to download the map. Which I did, so since always parked in the closest space in the zone to where I live.

The sign post says 30 minutes max stay only. Not sure if the signs had changed or been removed recently, but all the cars down that road that usually park there had tickets on.
I double checked the map and I am parked with where it says I can. The map has not changed on their website.

Here's the map with the area highlighted, and I have added a red X to show where I was parked.



Do you have any suggestions on how to deal with this?

Still waiting for court dates for the last 2. Maybe I can try and fight all 3 at once in court?
Just hoping I can speak to an actual human about this as everything their end is fully automated via their website.

Should I pay it and then try to appeal or just wait for a court date and hope I get a reasonable not motorist hating judge?

Thanks in advance for any help!

This post has been edited by question1: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:45
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post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:43
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stamfordman
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:49
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Put pics on https://imgbb.com and post BBcode embed links.

Unless the 30 min bay is shared use with residents you obviously can't park there.

Post council's pics and yours of signage. google street view shows no signs as of last April.
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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:03
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This post has been edited by question1: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:06
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stamfordman
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:06
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Looks bang to rights - this is nothing to do with a CPZ, just a parking bay free for anyone but only for 30 mins. What were you thinking?

Only thought is did they put sign up while you were parked there.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:07
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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:10
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Here's a link to the location on Google Street map. Photo is from July 2018 and the sign is not there.

https://goo.gl/maps/4jBJazZuhjL2

My car was park directly outside the Police station where the moped and badly parked blue car is.

This post has been edited by question1: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:11
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Neil B
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:13
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QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 17:43) *
The sign post says 30 minutes max stay only.

I'm at a loss. Why would you think you can park there?

And what do mean by "court" ?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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stamfordman
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:15
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It's what was there on the day that counts and their pic shows a sign.
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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:32
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 18:15) *
It's what was there on the day that counts and their pic shows a sign.


So if you parked there at 9am, then came back to your car at 1pm and found a fine and a new sign, you would accept that?

In which case we have a different opinion.

For those that haven't clicked on the link, here's a recent photo from Google street view.



The lamppost circled is where the new sign has been put up.

The circled space is where I was parked.

This post has been edited by question1: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:28
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Neil B
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:32
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QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:22) *
According to their website, that area is still within the CPZ.

You're not grasping this are you.
You have a permit which allows you to park in specified bays, not willy nilly, anywhere in a zone.
QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:26) *
Ealing's website has a map that shows where I can park with my permit. That includes the space I was parked in.

No it doesn't.
You applied for it; you must have understood what it was for.
Ealing website
"Once a resident permit has been issued the vehicle is permitted to park within a residents parking bay within the specific zone.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:36
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:32) *
QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:22) *
According to their website, that area is still within the CPZ.

You're not grasping this are you.
You have a permit which allows you to park in specified bays, not willy nilly, anywhere in a zone.
QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:26) *
Ealing's website has a map that shows where I can park with my permit. That includes the space I was parked in.

No it doesn't.
You applied for it; you must have understood what it was for.
Ealing website
"Once a resident permit has been issued the vehicle is permitted to park within a residents parking bay within the specific zone.


I came here for help. Not to argue with members of the parking wardens union or council's parking committee.

The resident permit does not allocate you one space. If it did I would park in my designated space everyday. Why would I or anyone pay for a permit, and the deliberately park out side of the zone?
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hcandersen
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:37
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OP, pl listen.

A CPZ regulates single yellow line restrictions only.

It has nothing to do with double yellow lines and nothing to do with parking places: chalk and cheese.

So, forget everything about CPZs, you were in a parking place.

The ONLY questions are:
What sign was in place when you parked on the day in question?
Did this permit but limit parking to 30 minutes?
Did you exceed 30 minutes?

Once we've got these basics in play we can move on.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:38
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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:45
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:37) *
OP, pl listen.

A CPZ regulates single yellow line restrictions only.

I don't understand what this means? None of the areas shown within the map of the CPZ have yellow lines of any type.


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:37) *
It has nothing to do with double yellow lines and nothing to do with parking places: chalk and cheese.

I don't understand what this means?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:37) *
So, forget everything about CPZs, you were in a parking place.

I don't understand what this means? Does the map on their website that tell you where to park in relation to the permit mean nothing then? Should that be completely ignored?
Why do they refer permit holders to the map to see where they can park if the map is irrelevant? I'm lost?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:37) *
The ONLY questions are:
1. What sign was in place when you parked on the day in question?
2. Did this permit but limit parking to 30 minutes?
3. Did you exceed 30 minutes?

Once we've got these basics in play we can move on.


To try and answer your questions.
1. I've parked in the same spot for months. When I first started parking there, there was no sign. I have proof. I have posted proof.
Have I checked every day since the all the signs and do I check the council's website everyday for changes. No sorry I didn't/don't.

2. Question makes no sense.

3. Irrelevant if according the the same council that issued the tickets shows on their website that with my permit, I can park in that very spot. And if that sign was put up on the day I got the fine, then what?


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stamfordman
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:56
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Well basically you've been parking in a free bay for a while. One day the council put up a sign. We don't know when. You have a ticket.

So - ask the council when they signed the bay.
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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:12
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I would be interested to know how many of you would also support councils and private parking firms for using these tactics - https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/8...-parking-ticket


QUOTE
"MARTIN LEWIS, money saving expert, warned drivers to be careful with parking tickets from now on after he noted councils and parking firms using new tactics to extract money from motorists.

By LAUREN O'CALLAGHAN
PUBLISHED: 11:07, Fri, Jun 2, 2017 | UPDATED: 18:46, Fri, Jun 2, 2017

Speaking on This Morning, Martin told drivers not to throw away their pay and display parking tickets after using them.

He said: “So you pay for your pay and display parking ticket, put it on your windscreen, and then leave. Job done.

“Err not quite – these days it’s increasingly common for parking firms and councils to use cameras to monitor parking, not people, and that means even weeks after the date you can find a parking fine or invoice in the post.

“Having recently heard of cases where people have struggled to prove they’ve paid, I’ve checked out how long afterwards you can still be contacted.

“Most firms will do it within 45 days, though some even longer, and the maximum time they can chase legally is six years.

“So I’ve a new warning rule of thumb. Keep your pay and display tickets for two months at least.

“Why not keep an envelope in your car to put them in as you go, then when it’s filled empty it into a drawer at home. You could also take a photo of them before you throw them out so that way if you’re chased later than expected you do have some proof.”


Seems like another new tactic they're using for extra income by councils. And private firms also to stop people giving other people their tickets if they still have time left on them.

I wonder how many people on this site work for parking firms private or government? Or people that generally hate cars and motorist, as there's no shortage of those. Must be a fair amount. Makes sense if you run parking firms to pay people minimum wage to troll through these type of sites giving out poor advice or making it seem impossible to challenge a fine.

Is there a way to tell which members are most likely real?

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:56) *
Well basically you've been parking in a free bay for a while. One day the council put up a sign. We don't know when. You have a ticket.

So - ask the council when they signed the bay.


I don't know about other councils. Ealing has a policy where you cannot speak to anyone. Everything is done through the website.
If you don't have access to the web, then the phone system is fully automated and will tell you to come in to the Council building to use their computers. None of the staff in the building in or near reception are allowed to do anything other than refer you to the website or find you a translator.

If you think I'm exaggerating, please feel free to try. Or Google it and see what people say about trying to speak to a person that can help in Ealing council.
I've tried over the years and given up for a number of things. If you ever do manage to speak to one of the 1,800+ staff they have, they will tell you that they can't help you and you need to go through the website. Everything on the website is multiple choice options. Any responses usually happen within 2 weeks to 4 months, and they are ALWAYS generic responses that have links to different parts of the website. Sounds unbelievable. All I can say is, try it if you don't believe me.
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Neil B
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:20
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You could alleviate your worries about our integrity by reading around cases on the forum.

It seems you're just a bit upset that you're too challenged to understand how to use your resident permit.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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southpaw82
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:25
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QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:12) *
I would be interested to know how many of you would also support councils and private parking firms for using these tactics - https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/life/8...-parking-ticket


QUOTE
"MARTIN LEWIS, money saving expert, warned drivers to be careful with parking tickets from now on after he noted councils and parking firms using new tactics to extract money from motorists.

By LAUREN O'CALLAGHAN
PUBLISHED: 11:07, Fri, Jun 2, 2017 | UPDATED: 18:46, Fri, Jun 2, 2017

Speaking on This Morning, Martin told drivers not to throw away their pay and display parking tickets after using them.

He said: “So you pay for your pay and display parking ticket, put it on your windscreen, and then leave. Job done.

“Err not quite – these days it’s increasingly common for parking firms and councils to use cameras to monitor parking, not people, and that means even weeks after the date you can find a parking fine or invoice in the post.

“Having recently heard of cases where people have struggled to prove they’ve paid, I’ve checked out how long afterwards you can still be contacted.

“Most firms will do it within 45 days, though some even longer, and the maximum time they can chase legally is six years.

“So I’ve a new warning rule of thumb. Keep your pay and display tickets for two months at least.

“Why not keep an envelope in your car to put them in as you go, then when it’s filled empty it into a drawer at home. You could also take a photo of them before you throw them out so that way if you’re chased later than expected you do have some proof.”


Seems like another new tactic they're using for extra income by councils. And private firms also to stop people giving other people their tickets if they still have time left on them.

I wonder how many people on this site work for parking firms private or government? Or people that generally hate cars and motorist, as there's no shortage of those. Must be a fair amount. Makes sense if you run parking firms to pay people minimum wage to troll through these type of sites giving out poor advice or making it seem impossible to challenge a fine.

Is there a way to tell which members are most likely real?

So if people don’t share your world view they’re working for a PPC or council? Weird...


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:26
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The way you find out is by going through process - we haven't seen your challenge. If you want to go on the full penalty will be at stake.

Given your paranoia about both Ealing and us, i would pay the discount and put it behind you. But take this advice - always check the signage in bays anywhere in the UK before you leave your car.
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question1
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 23:20
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:20) *
You could alleviate your worries about our integrity by reading around cases on the forum.

It seems you're just a bit upset that you're too challenged to understand how to use your resident permit.


I'm deeply hurt to have my intellect questioned by someone that has spent 10 years on this forum racking up almost 20,000 posts! I'm guessing not one of them any help to anyone.

I have looked around the forum and can see many of your unhelpful replies to others seeking help. Why do you even come on this forum day in day out?
My challenged imagination is picturing an ex traffic warden that got beaten up on the job and is now bedridden living off disability benefits and compensation, whose only enjoyment left in life is to take out his frustrations on the people he feels victimised by for "just doing my job".


QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 21:26) *
The way you find out is by going through process - we haven't seen your challenge. If you want to go on the full penalty will be at stake.

Given your paranoia about both Ealing and us, i would pay the discount and put it behind you. But take this advice - always check the signage in bays anywhere in the UK before you leave your car.


I think you are confusing paranoia with frustration, but you are right. I will pay the fine, but I'm still going to challenge it and take it further.
The challenge I put in was pretty much as I put in the original post. I shared my permit details along with the map that shows where my permit allows me to park.


Anyway, I'll leave you all to help whoever it is you're helping. It's been wonderful interacting with you all. It gives me great hope to know that there's such friendly, honest and helpful people still out there in the world!

Have a lovely Christmas people! xx


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cp8759
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 23:25
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QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:36) *
The resident permit does not allocate you one space. If it did I would park in my designated space everyday. Why would I or anyone pay for a permit, and the deliberately park out side of the zone?

A resident permit is only valid in a residents bay. You were not parked in a residents bay, so the permit is irrelevant.

QUOTE (question1 @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:45) *
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 20:37) *
OP, pl listen.

A CPZ regulates single yellow line restrictions only.

I don't understand what this means? None of the areas shown within the map of the CPZ have yellow lines of any type.

He was referring to this type of single yellow line: https://www.drivingtesttips.biz/can-you-par...llow-lines.html

The map doesn't show where they are, you have to look on the road. But the point is that the CPZ hours have no relevance to your case.


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southpaw82
post Mon, 12 Nov 2018 - 23:26
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Enough.


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