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NIP for speeding on business trip - Feb 2020
GWW
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 12:07
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I have received an NIP this morning (48 in a temporary 40 zone). The offence was in late February, but the NIP has only been received today as it was in a hire car that we were using for a business trip. There were 3-5 of us in the car (not 100% sure which trip this was) and I'm not sure who was driving, but as the offence was around 4 hours away from where I live I am concerned that if I state that I'm not sure who the driver was that I will be summonsed to court and would have to travel several hours to likely just be fined more anyway! I have looked at the picture on the website stated in the NIP, but this just shows the rear of the vehicle, which also had tinted windows so there are no people visible at all. Would it make sense just to take the fine/points/course based on the distance I would need to travel if summonsed?

In the event that I did take the fine it would be my first offence and as it was not too serious I would assume I would be offered a speed awareness course instead of the points. However - 1) Are these still an option with Covid-19?, 2) Would I be able to take one locally (or online given the current situation?) or would I need to travel the 4 hours and 3) Would I be allowed to take the course given the fact that they have taken over 4 months to get the NIP to me, meaning that the course would not have been completed within 12 weeks of the offence?

Thanks for any advice you guys can offer me.
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post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 12:07
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The Rookie
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 14:28
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They will NOT issue an FP if you send it the 23rd, that's a flying certainty.

Personally I'd post it first class on the 31st July to arrive on 3rd August and cross fingers for a timeout, unlikely but you wont be any worse off.

Your best chance of an FP is to send it back now, maximising their time available.

No logic in sending the 23rd AT ALL.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 14:29


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GWW
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 15:54
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 15:28) *
They will NOT issue an FP if you send it the 23rd, that's a flying certainty.

Personally I'd post it first class on the 31st July to arrive on 3rd August and cross fingers for a timeout, unlikely but you wont be any worse off.

Your best chance of an FP is to send it back now, maximising their time available.

No logic in sending the 23rd AT ALL.

Thanks for the input. I don't think i want to risk the SJPN in case there is a chance that the fixed penalty equivalent sentence will not be used for whatever reason. If anything goes wrong with that then the fine presumably will be a lot bigger than the £100 (and 3 points). If I do as you state and send the NIP back later then presumably a timeout is still unlikely and i am increasing the risk of an SJPN rather than a fixed penalty - correct? If this is the case it sounds like I am better off sending the NIP back straight away and just hoping for the fixed penalty. Sounds like i would have been better off receiving this NIP a few months earlier or a few months later. Either would have been ok, but it looks like i've landed right in the sweet spot for an SJPN sad.gif
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NewJudge
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 16:29
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There should be little risk if the matter goes before a Single Justice. Their guidance says this:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

It wasn't your fault that your NIP and S172 request arrived so late. It would be very unusual for a SJ to sentence in accordance with the normal guidelines instead of the fixed penalty level in such circumstances. It's your call but to maximise the chances of a "timeout" you need to get your response back as close to your deadline as possible. To maximise the chances of a FP offer you need to get it back asap. Personally I'm not so sure they will make you an offer anyway. If you got your response back to them by next Friday 10th and they turned it round by, say Tuesday 14th (which I think is unlikely) they would have to allow you until Tuesday 11th August to accept the offer. That would leave them under two weeks to initiate court action. That process is not lengthy or difficult, but they have to be on top of things as they have little slack.

As I said, your call. If you're happy to just take the hit I suppose just send your reply asap and see what they do.
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Jlc
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 16:32
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QUOTE (GWW @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 16:54) *
...will be a lot bigger than the £100 (and 3 points).

That excess would still be 3 points at court. (Even if normal sentencing is followed)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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GWW
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 16:37
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QUOTE (NewJudge @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 17:29) *
There should be little risk if the matter goes before a Single Justice. Their guidance says this:

Where a penalty notice could not be offered or taken up for reasons unconnected with the offence itself, such as administrative difficulties outside the control of the offender, the starting point should be a fine equivalent to the amount of the penalty and no order of costs should be imposed. The offender should not be disadvantaged by the unavailability of the penalty notice in these circumstances.

It wasn't your fault that your NIP and S172 request arrived so late. It would be very unusual for a SJ to sentence in accordance with the normal guidelines instead of the fixed penalty level in such circumstances. It's your call but to maximise the chances of a "timeout" you need to get your response back as close to your deadline as possible. To maximise the chances of a FP offer you need to get it back asap. Personally I'm not so sure they will make you an offer anyway. If you got your response back to them by next Friday 10th and they turned it round by, say Tuesday 14th (which I think is unlikely) they would have to allow you until Tuesday 11th August to accept the offer. That would leave them under two weeks to initiate court action. That process is not lengthy or difficult, but they have to be on top of things as they have little slack.

As I said, your call. If you're happy to just take the hit I suppose just send your reply asap and see what they do.

Thanks. I really appreciate the advice. If it goes before a single justice would there be any requirement for me to attend or is this a purely administrative exercise behind the scenes as it were? Or could I make the request for the fixed penalty equivalent via the returned SJPN and would then be notified of the outcome and penalty via post? Apologies for the lack of knowledge of how all this works.
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Logician
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 16:40
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QUOTE (GWW @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 17:37) *
Thanks. I really appreciate the advice. If it goes before a single justice would there be any requirement for me to attend or is this a purely administrative exercise behind the scenes as it were? Or could I make the request for the fixed penalty equivalent via the returned SJPN and would then be notified of the outcome and penalty via post? Apologies for the lack of knowledge of how all this works.


You cannot in fact attend a single justice hearing, there is no provision for it. You would be notified of the outcome by post.



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GWW
post Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 16:47
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QUOTE (Logician @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 17:40) *
QUOTE (GWW @ Wed, 8 Jul 2020 - 17:37) *
Thanks. I really appreciate the advice. If it goes before a single justice would there be any requirement for me to attend or is this a purely administrative exercise behind the scenes as it were? Or could I make the request for the fixed penalty equivalent via the returned SJPN and would then be notified of the outcome and penalty via post? Apologies for the lack of knowledge of how all this works.


You cannot in fact attend a single justice hearing, there is no provision for it. You would be notified of the outcome by post.

Great - thanks. As long as I'm safe from a 4 hour drive to attend court I'll give the timeout a shot and return the NIP near the end of the 28 day return period. Thanks to all again for their input icon_thumleft.gif
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GWW
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 08:58
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Hi all,
I have one further question regarding this case. I was hoping to send a letter or email back regarding the NIP to request if they had any additional pictures and to request some clarification around the speed limit at the time. The hire cars we were in all had a cruise control feature which we would all use through all roadwork areas. The offence was committed during a 1km section of a part of one of these roadworks and the speed was recorded at 47.6mph, which sounds to me like the cruise control could have been set around 50. It seems strange that 1 section would have been 40mph when i seem to recall the rest being 50mph. If I send this request for info will they see it as me disputing the offence and immediately send it to court or do they have to provide some feedback to me within the 28 days i have to sign and return the NIP? To clarify - I will state that I intend to return the NIP within the stated timeframe, but just that I would like some extra info prior to doing it. Is this a good idea or the worst thing i could do?!
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The Rookie
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 09:17
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Nope, it's routine, just get a letter off quick asking them for a copy of any photos to help you confirm the drivers ID or similar, it's best to avoid using the word 'evidence' as you aren't entitled to see the evidence at this stage and it can see them refuse. But make sure you reply to the request within the 28 days.

Not unusual to have some sections at 40mph.

It depends on what you were caught by, but most static cameras photograph from the rear so photos will almost certainly be of no use at all in identifying the driver. If you give us the location we can make a decent guess at the device used.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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Jlc
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 09:21
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:17) *
Nope, it's routine, just get a letter off quick asking them for a copy of any photos to help you confirm the drivers ID

OP already has the photo.

The question is more around the prevailing limit.

QUOTE (GWW @ Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 09:58) *
...or do they have to provide some feedback to me within the 28 days i have to sign and return the NIP?

They don't have to provide you anything at all at this stage. The only requirement is to name the driver using the reasonable diligence I covered previously.

They may entertain questions but one presumes they have the sufficient evidence for the prevailing limit. Or perhaps they don't...?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Logician
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:16
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If there was a contraflow section it might have been a 40 limit, definitely for a contraflow through a tunnel.


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GWW
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:28
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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 11:16) *
If there was a contraflow section it might have been a 40 limit, definitely for a contraflow through a tunnel.

No contraflow. It was on the M23 near Gatwick airport. On the airport spur. I guess it must have been 40 and we would have missed it. I'll send the letter off anyway and see what they say. Thanks again to all.

This post has been edited by GWW: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:29
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Atomic Tomato
post Thu, 9 Jul 2020 - 10:45
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I can confirm that part of the Gatwick spur has a 40mph limit
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GWW
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 10:29
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Hi,
I wanted to provide an update on this NIP from earlier this month. I took the advice provided by the various contributors and held off on returning the NIP form. I also sent a letter requesting further info on the speed limit and any additional photographic evidence. Today i have received a reply from Sussex police stating that no further action will be taken and that the notice has been cancelled. There is no further explanation as to why and it's baffled me a bit, but just wanted to thank everyone again for their input. I was due to return the NIP later this week if they had not replied, but i guess i can ignore it now. My only slight lingering concern is that the letter has not been signed - should i still be worried?!

Thanks again to all concerned for their input icon_thumleft.gif
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The Rookie
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 17:11
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If you have a letter saying the case is closed it would be a clear abuse to then try and prosecute you, you can send it back if you want but I wouldn’t bother.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 18:51
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Mon, 27 Jul 2020 - 18:11) *
If you have a letter saying the case is closed it would be a clear abuse to then try and prosecute you, you can send it back if you want but I wouldn’t bother.

Neither would I, you cannot seriously doubt the letter comes from the police.


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If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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