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PCN 01 - Yellow Zig Zags on a Saturday - Hammersmith and Fulham
rob777
post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 20:10
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Hi all,

I parked near Kensington Olympia yesterday morning on yellow school zig zag markings. From what I could see, they were only in operation Monday - Friday. I still got a PCN with code 01 - parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours.

I'd be grateful for views on whether this was a bang to rights contravention or not. I was going off the yellow zig zag lines here and still can't see any signs on the Streetview or my own photos that showed this was a "restricted street".

I've requested to see the Council photos/video but have received two unknown ticket details emails so will need to follow up tomorrow.

Thank you in advance.

Google Street View of Lines
Own Photos of Road and Sign
Another Road Photo
Car
PCN Front
PCN Rear
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post Sun, 20 Jan 2019 - 20:10
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cp8759
post Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 12:14
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QUOTE (rob777 @ Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 10:42) *
I asked the Council the following: "I am yet to receive the paper copy of the NoR and appeal form. Please can you provide an update on when these will be sent out?"

But the response I got was:

The rejection notice was only issued to you on 16.05.2019. Your current options are to pay the sum due or appeal to the independent adjudicators at London Tribunals. The Order For Recovery Of Unpaid Penalty Charge will not be issued for several weeks.

Is it worth replying and explaining clearly that the NoR hasn't yet been served considering I haven't received anything in the post?! I don't think they quite understood my email...

Well it's quite obvious they haven't understood the email so I would go back to them and simply explain that while they have emailed a copy of the NoR, you haven't received the paper copy in the post.


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rob777
post Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 15:02
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 12:14) *
QUOTE (rob777 @ Mon, 3 Jun 2019 - 10:42) *
I asked the Council the following: "I am yet to receive the paper copy of the NoR and appeal form. Please can you provide an update on when these will be sent out?"

But the response I got was:

The rejection notice was only issued to you on 16.05.2019. Your current options are to pay the sum due or appeal to the independent adjudicators at London Tribunals. The Order For Recovery Of Unpaid Penalty Charge will not be issued for several weeks.

Is it worth replying and explaining clearly that the NoR hasn't yet been served considering I haven't received anything in the post?! I don't think they quite understood my email...

Well it's quite obvious they haven't understood the email so I would go back to them and simply explain that while they have emailed a copy of the NoR, you haven't received the paper copy in the post.


Thanks cp8759... I replied to the Council three days ago now, I haven't heard back... may need to follow up with a call or just let time take its course...
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cp8759
post Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 13:58
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QUOTE (rob777 @ Thu, 6 Jun 2019 - 16:02) *
Thanks cp8759... I replied to the Council three days ago now, I haven't heard back... may need to follow up with a call or just let time take its course...

Call them up and ask when you'll get a copy in the post. Get a name of the person who you've spoken to.


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hcandersen
post Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 15:09
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OP, you have leapt from discussing the content of your informal reps (14 Feb) to post-NTO issues!

We haven't seen your challenge, their reply with the 'error', the NTO and your reps.

Not so much a gap in our knowledge, more a chasm!

While you're debating with the authority, may we have sight of your challenge etc. pl?

Particularly, is the address in the emailed NOR the same as in the NTO and that held by DVLA for you as registered keeper?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 15:11
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rob777
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 00:19
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 8 Jun 2019 - 15:09) *
OP, you have leapt from discussing the content of your informal reps (14 Feb) to post-NTO issues!

We haven't seen your challenge, their reply with the 'error', the NTO and your reps.

Not so much a gap in our knowledge, more a chasm!

While you're debating with the authority, may we have sight of your challenge etc. pl?

Particularly, is the address in the emailed NOR the same as in the NTO and that held by DVLA for you as registered keeper?


Apologies for the big chasm and delay here! I forgot to share the NtO or my formal reps with you all. The NtO is here and I'll paste formal reps below. The 'error' is in their challenge refused letter, regarding the road where I would have seen the CPZ signs and I corrected them in my reps below.

The address of the NoR is matched to my DVLA registered keeper address. I finally received a paper copy of the NoR from the council while I was away. The London Tribunals form states in a handwritten note on the official use only bit, a 2nd form was sent on 3 June so I assume we are working as date of service as 5 June? I stupidly did not keep the envelope to check the date of the postmark...

I was however surprised to still receive a Charge Certificate from Hammersmith and Fulham dated 19 June, see here and here. I may need to ring the council about this to check if we can work off the date of service of the paper copy of the NoR which should be 5 June.

I would still like to submit an appeal to London Tribunals, particularity raising the point that the NoR doesn't mention that an adjudicator can allow an appeal out of time, as cp8759 mentioned below with Shelley Sinclair vs Lewisham. But as always, grateful for the views of you all - realise I've probably made a bit of a mess of this one.

Many thanks as always.


Formal reps:

Your Challenge Refused letter is incorrect. It states that I would have passed the CPZ restriction sign on North End Road before travelling to Avonmore Road. I came via Olympia (see evidence of my parking there). The CPZ sign I would have passed was on Blythe Road, 0.3 miles away. On revisiting the sign on Blythe Road (see evidence), the sign is unnecessarily high, obstructed by vegetation and significantly angled to the right. The sign should face traffic straight on at this location and I can’t see any justifiable reason why you angled the sign away from traffic turning left. I believe the sign is too high which means you are not providing adequate guidance to the driver who is now entering a CPZ. This makes this restriction unenforceable for cars travelling via Blythe Road.

There is significant confusion arising from the school stopping restriction. My attention before and after parking was to check for signs separate from the school stopping restrictions. There was no reference to other signs that led me to believe I was contravening. Adjudicators (such as decision in case 216009994A and 2160502623) ruled Councils wishing to operate this combination of restrictions must ensure they’re indicated clearly and correctly. Chapter 3 of the Traffic Signs Manual deals with this situation at paragraph 14.1.13. It reads “Research has shown that it is unrealistic to expect drivers to remember the times of operation of the zone when they come to park a considerable distance after passing a zone entry sign.

In case 2160502623, the adjudicator ruled that the yellow line and yellow zig-zags created the appearance of a single restriction governed by the signage next to them, similar to the case of my alleged PCN. A time plate should have been placed on or nearby the post with the school markings. For that reason of procedural impropriety, you should accept my appeal.
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cp8759
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:35
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IMO they've handed you a winning hand: If the Notice of Rejection was only served on 5 June, they've issued a charge certificate prematurely. Here's what I would submit, send this to the tribunal ASAP (you can appeal online, you don't actually have to use the paper form)

You must also send:

1) The cover email they used to send the NoR (the one saying a paper copy will follow)
2) the email from 3rd June that you sent to them chasing the paper copy
3) The charge certificate
4) A copy of the page of the appeal form with the 3rd June date hand-written

----------------

In the first instance I must explain why this appeal might appear to be out of time, and also why contrary to that appearance it is not out of time at all. On 16 May 2019 I received an email from the council explaining the following:

"A formal copy will be mailed in due course. If you are replying to this message please ensure that the reference number is included in the subject. If the attached letter is a formal "Notice of Rejection of Representation" and you are due to receive an appeal form, the form will be included with the formal copy sent by post. We are unable to email appeal forms"

By 3rd June the Notice of Rejection had still not been delivered so I sent an email to the council asking when I would receive it (copy enclosed), I then spent a few days away and upon my return I finally found that the Notice of Rejection had been delivered. On the appeal form enclosed by the council, a council official appears to have added in hand-writing that the form was sent out on 3rd June, possibly prompted by my email and a follow-up phone call I also made to the council on 3rd June.

If the paper copy of the Notice of Rejection was posted on 3rd June, in the normal course of events the date of service would be 5 June, this means the 28 day deadline to pay or appeal expires on 2nd July. Therefore despite the fact that the Notice to Owner purports to have been issued on 16 May, because it was not posted until 3rd June, this appeal is not in fact out of time. For this reason, I ask that the tribunal agree to register the appeal.

Moving onto the substance of the appeal, I challenge liability against the PCN on two main grounds. In the first instance, I rely on my formal representation and I ask that the tribunal take into account my comments on the positioning, angle and height of the signage. I submit on that basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Furthermore, I content the Notice of Rejection is defective in any event as it does not inform the recipient that the tribunal has a power to allow an out-of-time appeal, as per Shelley Sinclair v London Borough of Lewisham (218033612A, 26 September 2018) and this is a procedural impropriety.

Finally, I submit the council has committed a serious procedural impropriety in prematurely issuing a charge certificate. It is not entirely clear why the council chose to send the Notice of Rejection by email in the first instance, but as the Notice of Rejection was only posted on 3rd June, the appeal period does not expire until 2nd July. However, the council issued a charge certificate on 19 June, well before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the Notice of Rejection. This is a procedural impropriety on the basis of which the appeal should be allowed in any event.


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rob777
post Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 18:20
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 24 Jun 2019 - 14:35) *
IMO they've handed you a winning hand: If the Notice of Rejection was only served on 5 June, they've issued a charge certificate prematurely. Here's what I would submit, send this to the tribunal ASAP (you can appeal online, you don't actually have to use the paper form)

You must also send:

1) The cover email they used to send the NoR (the one saying a paper copy will follow)
2) the email from 3rd June that you sent to them chasing the paper copy
3) The charge certificate
4) A copy of the page of the appeal form with the 3rd June date hand-written

----------------

In the first instance I must explain why this appeal might appear to be out of time, and also why contrary to that appearance it is not out of time at all. On 16 May 2019 I received an email from the council explaining the following:

"A formal copy will be mailed in due course. If you are replying to this message please ensure that the reference number is included in the subject. If the attached letter is a formal "Notice of Rejection of Representation" and you are due to receive an appeal form, the form will be included with the formal copy sent by post. We are unable to email appeal forms"

By 3rd June the Notice of Rejection had still not been delivered so I sent an email to the council asking when I would receive it (copy enclosed), I then spent a few days away and upon my return I finally found that the Notice of Rejection had been delivered. On the appeal form enclosed by the council, a council official appears to have added in hand-writing that the form was sent out on 3rd June, possibly prompted by my email and a follow-up phone call I also made to the council on 3rd June.

If the paper copy of the Notice of Rejection was posted on 3rd June, in the normal course of events the date of service would be 5 June, this means the 28 day deadline to pay or appeal expires on 2nd July. Therefore despite the fact that the Notice to Owner purports to have been issued on 16 May, because it was not posted until 3rd June, this appeal is not in fact out of time. For this reason, I ask that the tribunal agree to register the appeal.

Moving onto the substance of the appeal, I challenge liability against the PCN on two main grounds. In the first instance, I rely on my formal representation and I ask that the tribunal take into account my comments on the positioning, angle and height of the signage. I submit on that basis that the alleged contravention did not occur.

Furthermore, I content the Notice of Rejection is defective in any event as it does not inform the recipient that the tribunal has a power to allow an out-of-time appeal, as per Shelley Sinclair v London Borough of Lewisham (218033612A, 26 September 2018) and this is a procedural impropriety.

Finally, I submit the council has committed a serious procedural impropriety in prematurely issuing a charge certificate. It is not entirely clear why the council chose to send the Notice of Rejection by email in the first instance, but as the Notice of Rejection was only posted on 3rd June, the appeal period does not expire until 2nd July. However, the council issued a charge certificate on 19 June, well before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the Notice of Rejection. This is a procedural impropriety on the basis of which the appeal should be allowed in any event.


What a great help, thanks cp8759, much appreciated! I'll do as you suggested and update once I have some news!
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rob777
post Mon, 19 Aug 2019 - 22:17
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My appeal was accepted by London Tribunals and the council has now sent their evidence to myself and London Tribunals. The hearing is scheduled for Thursday. I'd be grateful for any advice on how best to approach the hearing. A copy of some of the evidence received from the council:

Covering letter
Case summary
Page saying TRO uploaded to LT
CPZ map
CPZ and pay and display signage that I did not pass

Just to give my views - the case summary is very inaccurate. They have gone back to the same mistakes in the original Challenge Refused letter stating I would have travelled zone entry zones on the junction of West Cromwell Road and North End Road. As I was parked in Olympia beforehand (I have evidence of this), I would've passed Zone E entry signs on Blythe Road as talked about earlier in the thread, which were high, angled away from the traffic and partially covered by trees. I also have no idea where this time plate photo is from which they attached as evidence, as it is definitely not near where I parked on the school zig zag lines.

They have also not addressed the fact that they missed out that London Tribunals will consider late appeals on the NoR, saying it is just up to London Tribunals if they accept or reject a late appeal.

They also have completely ignored that I never received the NoR until the one which was posted on 3 June. They state that they correctly posted the Charge Certificate 28 days after the NoR dated 16 May 2019.

I will definitely make sure I print out all copies for Thursday of my correspondence with the council chasing the paper NoR and the handwritten note on the appeal form dated 3 June etc. As well as having previous case references referred to below readily available.

Grateful for any views/tips ahead of Thursday. Many thanks in advance.
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 10:22
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Draft appeal wording: http://bit.ly/31OEO4j

Obviously check all the dates, make sure the content is accurate (I haven't actually seen the emails so I'm relying on what you've posted on here), add in your real name and the real case number (see bits in red), change all text to black, save as a PDF and then upload to the tribunal website.

Even if the adjudicator finds in your favour on ground 1, I would still press for a decision on ground 2 because it's one almighty f*&k-up from the council. Depending on what the adjudicator says, it might be worth making an application for costs at a later date.


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rob777
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 13:21
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 10:22) *
Draft appeal wording: http://bit.ly/31OEO4j

Obviously check all the dates, make sure the content is accurate (I haven't actually seen the emails so I'm relying on what you've posted on here), add in your real name and the real case number (see bits in red), change all text to black, save as a PDF and then upload to the tribunal website.

Even if the adjudicator finds in your favour on ground 1, I would still press for a decision on ground 2 because it's one almighty f*&k-up from the council. Depending on what the adjudicator says, it might be worth making an application for costs at a later date.


cp8759 - thank you very much for this - really appreciated. I forgot to mention I was planning to attend in person, would that mean I would present the appeal wording you suggested orally or still submit the suggested online ahead of Thursday? I would actually prefer not to go, so perhaps I could just upload the suggested wording to London Tribunals and not attend?

Many thanks again.
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cp8759
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 17:48
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You should submit the written appeal in advance, whether you plan to attend or not. That being said, I recommend you go so you can take the adjudicator through all the paperwork and answer any questions he may have. This case is based to a great extend on your credibility so attending is definitely recommended. That being said, if you decide not to go, it's common courtesy to let the tribunal know.


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rob777
post Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 17:59
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 20 Aug 2019 - 17:48) *
You should submit the written appeal in advance, whether you plan to attend or not. That being said, I recommend you go so you can take the adjudicator through all the paperwork and answer any questions he may have. This case is based to a great extend on your credibility so attending is definitely recommended. That being said, if you decide not to go, it's common courtesy to let the tribunal know.


Many thanks - I will certainly submit the written appeal beforehand, attend and of course report back...fingers crossed.
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Mad Mick V
post Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 13:20
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Well Done OP ---no evidence from the Council as to the CPZ entry points.

2190253856

Mick
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rob777
post Sun, 25 Aug 2019 - 21:43
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Sat, 24 Aug 2019 - 13:20) *
Well Done OP ---no evidence from the Council as to the CPZ entry points.

2190253856

Mick


Many thanks Mick, indeed the Adjudicator was not impressed with the Council's photos of the CPZ entry signs as they had no indication as to where they were located. They were also not the signs on Blythe Road which I would have passed anyway. So actually, the Adjudicator made the decision to allow the appeal on the lack of CPZ entry sign evidence from the council, without considering any of the other grounds of appeal that cp8759 helped me formulate above.

We asked him still for decisions on the other grounds of appeal we had prepared, but he made it clear he did not need to address the other aspects of the appeal, giving us a legal explanation to do with precedent but can't quite remember the exact explanation he gave!

Big thanks to cp8759 for the help with this one, much appreciated!
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