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10 % + 2, Speed awareness course statement
Harnes
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 07:40
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A customer has just attended a speed awareness course and has said he was told that "they" have done away with the 10% +2 mph so that if you get caught doing 31mph in a 30 you will get prosecuted ! Does anyone know if this is true


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post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 07:40
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Jlc
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 09:23
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QUOTE (Harnes @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 08:40) *
A customer has just attended a speed awareness course and has said he was told that "they" have done away with the 10% +2 mph so that if you get caught doing 31mph in a 30 you will get prosecuted ! Does anyone know if this is true

No, it's not true. Nothing like a bit of scare tactics... laugh.gif


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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BaggieBoy
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 09:58
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Heard this many times but no one has ever come up with a documented case of a prosecution below 10% + 2.
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The Rookie
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 10:09
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Well half true really, you could always be prosecuted for 31 (in fact when the 30 limit was first introduced in his speech the transport minister stated people would be), the +10% +2 is a decision made by the Police. No evidence that has been changed.


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notmeatloaf
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:20
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No, but it seems to be a fairly common claim at speed awareness courses.

Perhaps conflating that 10%+2mph has never been a statutory protection, but instead convention adopted by all police forces.
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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 13:59
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QUOTE (Harnes @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 08:40) *
A customer has just attended a speed awareness course and has said he was told that "they" have done away with the 10% +2 mph so that if you get caught doing 31mph in a 30 you will get prosecuted ! Does anyone know if this is true

That's ok, the Supreme Court has said that if you get prosecuted for doing 31 in a 30 you should get an absolute discharge, no points, no fine, so nothing to worry about.


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122basy
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 16:43
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The instructors on speed awareness courses have nothing to do with speed enforcement and enforcement thresholds.

The speed enforcement policy is and has been for some time, at least 18 years as far as I am aware, openly published.

If anyone took care to read them as well as the table of speeds there are supporting words that clearly explain that speeds below the published table of recommendations can be dealt with by prosecutions. That too has always been published with the speed tables.

You cannot attend a speed awareness course until the speeds at 10% +2mph have been reached even if the police did prosecute below that speed.

On every SAC I have attended I have heard a number of people who are "confused" about the speed at which they were caught and quoted a speed below 10% +2mph. They are either confused or are not happy to attend so exaggerate their circumstance.
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Redivi
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 17:12
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My brother had NIPs arising from a fixed camera near Nottingham for 32 and 34 mph

Would have accepted points for both
Was spending so much time travelling at short notice that he couldn't plan any courses
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cp8759
post Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 18:01
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 18:12) *
My brother had NIPs arising from a fixed camera near Nottingham for 32 and 34 mph

Would have accepted points for both
Was spending so much time travelling at short notice that he couldn't plan any courses

We've had at least one case where someone in Kent got a NIP for doing 77 in a 70, they apparently called the ticket office and queried this and they just cancelled it. Mistakes do happen, they can be fixed.


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typefish
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 08:11
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QUOTE (Harnes @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 08:40) *
A customer has just attended a speed awareness course and has said he was told that "they" have done away with the 10% +2 mph so that if you get caught doing 31mph in a 30 you will get prosecuted ! Does anyone know if this is true


Yes, in some areas this is partially true!

Those areas being 10% + 3mph instead
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 12:59
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QUOTE (122basy @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 17:43) *
The instructors on speed awareness courses have nothing to do with speed enforcement and enforcement thresholds.

Ridiculous.

Apart from the more obvious direct link, clearly police need to be satisfied that courses have a similar deterrent and educative effect as fixed penalties. One of the ways they do that (and I am sure there are more) is to measure reoffending rates.

The course providers may be third parties but the police have a hands on approach, after all we are told it is all about safety and not money (but thank you for the money anyway).
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andy_foster
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 14:42
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 13:59) *
QUOTE (122basy @ Sat, 30 Jun 2018 - 17:43) *
The instructors on speed awareness courses have nothing to do with speed enforcement and enforcement thresholds.

Ridiculous.

Apart from the more obvious direct link, clearly police need to be satisfied that courses have a similar deterrent and educative effect as fixed penalties. One of the ways they do that (and I am sure there are more) is to measure reoffending rates.

The course providers may be third parties but the police have a hands on approach, after all we are told it is all about safety and not money (but thank you for the money anyway).


Have you actually read the post you are arguing with? Like the actual words, not what you think it ought to have said?


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DancingDad
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 14:57
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 13:59) *
........Apart from the more obvious direct link, clearly police need to be satisfied that courses have a similar deterrent and educative effect as fixed penalties. One of the ways they do that (and I am sure there are more) is to measure reoffending rates.
………...


Do what ?
Re offenders simply do not get offered a course (within time limits) and get the fixed penalty and points or court for more points.
Serious re-offenders get totting up bans.
Old Bill have plenty of stats to show they are doing their job and cracking down on these serious criminals who speed, keep the speed kills brigade happy and get to keep some money.
Nominally this may be about deterrents but I have to question what deterrent is going to work when we see people clocking serious overspeed on managed motorways let alone on other roads with cameras.
For me, the number of cameras about now has made me rethink speed, if only to protect my (clean) licence and judging by what I see when driving, many are the same.
Without the speed cameras, I would happily still be cruising down motorways at 95+ and on other roads at whatever I felt safe.
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notmeatloaf
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 16:16
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Fairly obviously it is about face saving, if the courses were shown to be ineffective and central government stuck their oar in in such a way that payments were stopped then a swathe of police staff lose their jobs.

Of course the odds are stacked as the course criteria mean by definition people are less likely to reoffend. But of course guaranteed favourable statistics are the best type of statistics if you're relying on them.

As for speeds undoubtedly they have gone down in the last decade. I changed after I got caught on a 30mph dual carriageway past retail parks at 11pm one night. Now I mostly just whack the speed limiter on and save exuberant driving for empty B-roads at night

(Never got points for the 30mph although I think through clerical error rather than skill.)
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cp8759
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 20:35
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QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 17:16) *
Fairly obviously it is about face saving, if the courses were shown to be ineffective and central government stuck their oar in in such a way that payments were stopped then a swathe of police staff lose their jobs.

Is there any data to support that the money from courses generates a sufficient surplus to employ "a swathe of police staff", or is this just a supposition?


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nigelbb
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 05:53
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 21:35) *
QUOTE (notmeatloaf @ Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 17:16) *
Fairly obviously it is about face saving, if the courses were shown to be ineffective and central government stuck their oar in in such a way that payments were stopped then a swathe of police staff lose their jobs.

Is there any data to support that the money from courses generates a sufficient surplus to employ "a swathe of police staff", or is this just a supposition?

In any case wouldn't this be a good thing if it were true?


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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Redivi
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 08:45
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Apart from the more obvious direct link, clearly police need to be satisfied that courses have a similar deterrent and educative effect as fixed penalties.
One of the ways they do that (and I am sure there are more) is to measure reoffending rates


The insurance companies clearly don't think they're of any value if Admiral increases premiums for drivers that have taken a SAC
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Tartarus
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 09:03
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But conversely, aren't they the only one that we know about that do...?
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nigelbb
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 09:28
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 09:45) *
Apart from the more obvious direct link, clearly police need to be satisfied that courses have a similar deterrent and educative effect as fixed penalties.
One of the ways they do that (and I am sure there are more) is to measure reoffending rates


The insurance companies clearly don't think they're of any value if Admiral increases premiums for drivers that have taken a SAC

There is no contradiction. Insurance companies couldn't care less about speeding per se they only care about accident claims. It's perfectly possible that an SAC does deter speeding but does little else to correct aspects of a driving style that leads to accidents.

This post has been edited by nigelbb: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 09:29


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British Parking Association Ltd Code of Practice(Appendix C contains Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 ) & can be found here http://www.britishparking.co.uk/Code-of-Pr...ance-monitoring
DfT Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of POFA 2012 https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...ing-charges.pdf
Damning OFT advice on levels of parking charges that was ignored by the BPA Ltd Reference Request Number: IAT/FOIA/135010 – 12 October 2012
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The Rookie
post Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 09:47
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Mon, 2 Jul 2018 - 09:45) *
Apart from the more obvious direct link, clearly police need to be satisfied that courses have a similar deterrent and educative effect as fixed penalties.
One of the ways they do that (and I am sure there are more) is to measure reoffending rates


The insurance companies clearly don't think they're of any value if Admiral increases premiums for drivers that have taken a SAC

The counter argument is that those who have attended a SAC may have a higher risk than those who haven't been caught speeding (so across the whole population including those who 'never speed' so would never be caught and those yet to be caught) while still being a lower risk than they were before being caught.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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