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Suspended bay again, Suspension applied without notice or suitably placed.
dadant
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 12:47
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Hello forum, I have a feeling I'm grasping at straws a little but would appreciate any guidance or advice on whether I have any grounds for an appeal.

I reside in a CPZ in a London borough where a large single unmarked bay straddles both the front of mine and my neighbour's properties (1), the bay was suspended for around three weeks while roadworks were completed and the notice for that works was placed on post (2) as it is the nearest available. Once the suspension was over and thinking the roadworks were completed I parked in the bay where I left the car for around 24 hrs when I noticed the PCN on my vehicle, I then realised another suspension notice had been reapplied and fitted to the no entry sign to the right of the bay (3). Do I have any case at all as I was given no notice of the bay suspension and the sign wasn't placed I feel on an appropriate site/sign nor is it on the post nearest to the bay concerned. Thanks in advance.

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This post has been edited by dadant: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 13:59
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post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 12:47
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stamfordman
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 13:05
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An unsigned bay has no status - I would have thought it can't be suspended for permit holders because anyone can park there.

the signage looks poor - suspending it at different posts is obviously rubbish.

post a google street view so we can look around.
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dadant
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 13:46
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Thanks Stamfordman, yes vehicles parking in that bay have been issued PCNs in the past and subsequently won on appeal as it is an unsigned bay but does the same apply to a suspension notice where the bays are described? I don't know.

https://mapstreetview.com/#uomzl_-ab79_7i.0_5g42


My only thought was that Hillingdon council state the suspension notice should be placed on the "nearest sign posts relating to the parking space". I've read of other cases where placement of suspension notices doesn't seem to matter but you'd have thought that it meant a parking related sign at least.

https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/21659...ing-suspensions

This post has been edited by dadant: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 14:09
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 16:33
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Any evidence of the first sign on the lamp post ?

Post the council photos


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dadant
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 18:05
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 16:33) *
Any evidence of the first sign on the lamp post ?

Post the council photos



If you mean for the first suspension I'm afraid not, must've been removed as soon as the second suspension was put in place.

Can't access pictures atm, will try later.



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hcandersen
post Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 21:48
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OP, how can you quote the council and yet not post any letter, either yours or theirs??

You're on a winner, but let's have all the facts pl.

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dadant
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 21:48) *
OP, how can you quote the council and yet not post any letter, either yours or theirs??

You're on a winner, but let's have all the facts pl.


There hasn't been any correspondance, the quote was from Hillingdon borough's website...

https://www.hillingdon.gov.uk/article/21659...ing-suspensions


I can't seem to easily save and therefore post the pictures taken by the warden from their website unless there's a knack?



This post has been edited by dadant: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 00:37
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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 16:52
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PM me the PCN details and I'll do it for you.


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cp8759
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:40
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 13:05) *
An unsigned bay has no status - I would have thought it can't be suspended for permit holders because anyone can park there.

An unsigned bay will still be a designated parking place or space under the RTRA 1984, unless the TMO is faulty or missing. As such it can still be suspended just like any other bay.

IMO the strongest point here is the suspension sign: It relates to a permit holders' bay, the bay where you were parked is not a permit holders' bay, so the suspension sign cannot relate to where you parked.


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stamfordman
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:51
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 17:40) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Fri, 8 Mar 2019 - 13:05) *
An unsigned bay has no status - I would have thought it can't be suspended for permit holders because anyone can park there.

An unsigned bay will still be a designated parking place or space under the RTRA 1984, unless the TMO is faulty or missing. As such it can still be suspended just like any other bay.

IMO the strongest point here is the suspension sign: It relates to a permit holders' bay, the bay where you were parked is not a permit holders' bay, so the suspension sign cannot relate to where you parked.


That was my point. The bay has no status as a permit bay without a sign. I didn't mean it doesn't have an order.
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dadant
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 18:26
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Thanks for your time.

So the point to contest is the sign mistakingly refers to a permit bay when it is in fact no such thing as it has no status.

In your experience is that worth contesting?

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stamfordman
post Sat, 9 Mar 2019 - 19:12
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Well not that it has no status - that's my confusing word - but simply that they have suspended a permit bay. There is no sign saying it's a permit bay. You are entitled to rely on the signage they refer to. Therefore no contravention.
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dadant
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 11:36
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I've sent the appeal, just curious if the sign didn't refer to "permit holder's bay" and just the bay outside so and so would the order have been valid despite it's status or lack of?

Edit...re-read thread answered by cp8759

This post has been edited by dadant: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 11:41
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 11:41
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QUOTE (dadant @ Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 11:36) *
I've sent the appeal, just curious if the sign didn't refer to "permit holder's bay" and just the bay outside so and so would the order have been valid despite it's status or lack of?


You should have posted your draft first.

what did you cover That the sign said permit bay?

the inadequacy due to placement of the sign?

the confusion the sign causes saying 1 parking space entire bay when the bay clearly has space for more than one car?


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stamfordman
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 11:59
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Indeed - we see a lot of challenges going off half-cock. Still, as it's a parking PCN there will be a formal reps stage - but don't appeal in future without posting a draft as the collective brains here need a chance to assess and improve it.
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dadant
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 12:47
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Fair enough sorry...I didn't realise you'd proof a response, could I re-submit?

A bit late but here you go...


To whom it may concern

I wish to appeal against the penalty charge served upon me on the grounds that the council has failed in their statutory duty to sign the temporarily suspended bay in accordance with the law.

As you can see from the attached image the bay in question is unsigned whereas the temporary suspension sign makes reference to a “permit holders bay”. Given that the order and signage had also continued from a previous order without being given any prior notice I am entitled to rely on the complete accuracy of the sign referred to therefore there has been no parking contravention.

I have demonstrated that the temporary suspension sign is incorrect and therefore I require the council to acknowledge their signing error and that this penalty charge be cancelled forthwith.

This post has been edited by dadant: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 13:15
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cp8759
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 13:42
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Oh dear that's terrible. send a follow up:

-------------

Dear Sir or Madam,

Further to my previous representation, I wish to clarify that the sign the council is relying on based on the CEO's photos is a suspension sign that makes explicit reference to a permit holders' bay; however my car was not parked in a permit holders' bay, rather it was parked in an unsigned bay that has no restrictions, whether for permit holders or otherwise.

As my vehicle was not parked in a permit holders' bay, the sign cannot refer to the bay where I was parked. Absent a sign which applied to the bay where I was parked, there was no lawful suspension in place, at least not in the particular bay, as such the alleged contravention did not occur.


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dadant
post Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 14:01
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sun, 10 Mar 2019 - 13:42) *
Oh dear that's terrible. send a follow up:


laugh.gif Thanks, done.
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dadant
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 14:47
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I've received a response from my local authority today and my PCN has not been cancelled.

I will scan and post the letter in full this evening but their only reason for not doing so appears to be that "the suspension sign is compliant with the Traffic Signs Regulations and General directions 2002".

I have 28 days to pay or not then i'll be issued with NtO when I'll be able to submit formal representations.

I'm not entirely sure what to do next as I am at the merci of this forum and it's experts however I'm prepared to contest it if the consensus is there is a decent chance of overturning the decision.

This post has been edited by dadant: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 16:03
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stamfordman
post Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 15:25
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Looking at this again I really do think they are trying it on - instead of putting in a post and sign as there should be in the bay, and then suspending it, they've suspended it with a notice elsewhere. We always talk about the primacy of bays and their signs and this doesn't cut the mustard or butter any parsnips.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 - 15:25
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