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Confusion over speeding ticket
kayla1999
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:10
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22/08/2018 - Car was seen by camera doing 35 in a 30 zone
Car is leased so we didn't get the notification until beginning of October
There are 3 of us insured on the car and due to the length of time was unsure as to who was driving so responded and explained that and asked for photographic evidence. Still unable to clarify from picture.
Today all 3 possible drivers have received a 'Single Justice Procedural Notice'
- All 3 being charged with the offence ??

We can remember that day, it was GCSE results day so we were all off work. The camera was on a stretch of road behind our house and we all used the car that afternoon. My son picked my daughters friend up, I took them to collect their GCSE results and then we went out for food. It could have been any of those trips, None of us are clear of the timings that afternoon and it is very difficult to remember your precise movements from 2 months ago
How do we respond to this, it is very confusing.

Hoping someone may have been in a similar situation and be able to advise
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post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:10
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AntonyMMM
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:20
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There is some detail missing here -

Assuming the registered keeper is the lease company, who did they name as keeper (i.e. who received the notification in October) and exactly what did that person say in their response ?

If they named three possible drivers, then each should have received a further request to in their own name - did they ?

If they did - how exactly did they respond ?

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Jlc
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:23
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Sending s172 requests to all the potential drivers does happen. Can you confirm the charges each has received? (It may be the offence itself and/or the s172 name the driver)

The person keeping the vehicle has the obligation to name the driver. Others have a lower obligation to provide any information they have that may lead to the identification. What need each respond to their request?

As it's now at court a plea has to be submitted - guilty or not guilty. A not guilty plea will result in a court hearing.


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RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:23
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Who was the notice actually addressed to? You say "the notice", did you not get one each?

This post has been edited by cp8759: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 12:24


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kayla1999
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:00
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Offence - 16/08/2018

25/09/2018 - A notice of intended prosecution sent to myself (initially went to car lease company)

I responded to that letter stating I was unsure who was driving at the time and asked for photographic evidence whilst naming the other two possible drivers

22/10/2018 - 2 other potential drivers then receive individual letters asking if they were driving - responded as unsure due to length of time

3 separate letters received today to all 3 potential drivers stating that you are charged with the offence(s) - speeding and failing to give information relating to the identification of the driver

I hope that is the information you are enquiring about, thank you

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gilan02
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:01
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QUOTE (kayla1999 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:10) *
22/08/2018 - Car was seen by camera doing 35 in a 30 zone

If the date of the offence was 22/08/2018 then this was the day before GCSE results day. Does that help narow the search down?
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kayla1999
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:11
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QUOTE (gilan02 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:01) *
QUOTE (kayla1999 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:10) *
22/08/2018 - Car was seen by camera doing 35 in a 30 zone

If the date of the offence was 22/08/2018 then this was the day before GCSE results day. Does that help narow the search down?


Sorry it was the 16th August, I'm not sure where I got that date from

Thank you for correcting me about the date, the actual date is not GCSE results day which we presumed it was. I have no idea who had the car on that day ! How am I honestly meant to remember. How frustrating !
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:14
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So the obligation on the three of you was the one under paragraph (b) below:

(2) Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence to which this section applies—
(a) the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police or the Chief Constable of the British Transport Police Force, and
(b) any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.


So you have to show that it is not within your power to give more information than you have already given. While this is a less stringent requirement than the one under paragraph (a), just saying you don't remember is unlikely to be sufficient.


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AntonyMMM
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:18
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At the moment all three of you are looking at 6pts, a large fine and potentially high insurance costs for a number of years (insurers don't like convictions for failing to nominate the driver).

If you can work out which one of you was driving that person MAY be able to bargain and plead guilty to the speeding, and get their s172 offence dropped. That doesn't automatically mean the other two will get their cases dismissed though, but it would help.

Otherwise each of you, assuming you plead not guilty, will be facing a trial - being "unsure" isn't much of a defence - what did you each do to try and work it out ? Note that if you do lose at court, there will be costs on top of the penalties.

This post has been edited by AntonyMMM: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:24
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kayla1999
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:21
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QUOTE (AntonyMMM @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:18) *
At the moment all three of you are looking at 6pts, a large fine and potentially high insurance costs for a number of years (insurers don't like convictions for failing to nominate the driver).

If you can work out which one of you was driving that person MAY be able to bargain and plead guilty to the speeding, and get their s172 offence dropped. That doesn't automatically mean the other two will get their cases dismissed though, but it would help.

Otherwise each of you, assuming you plead not guilty, will be facing a trial - being "unsure" isn't much of a defence - what did you each do to try and work it out ?


What an awful mess ! When we tried to figure out who was driving we did so thinking it was the day the GCSE results were published, and it wasn't that day!

The likelihood now with the correct date being considered I probably would have been driving
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:22
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So kayla1999 does your SJPN notice say you're charged with speeding as well, or is it just the s172 charge?


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peterguk
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:22
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What efforts did you make to work out who was driving?

You had ther date, time, location and direction.

3 journeys.
1) son picked up daughter
2) you, son and daugher went to school
c) someone went for food.

So person who went for food knows who that was. Was that at end of day? Son picked yup daughter. Early in day? Seems at least one person could have been elimnated without too much effort.

You checked phones for messages and calls to each other?

This post has been edited by peterguk: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:23


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Jlc
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:25
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QUOTE (kayla1999 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:11) *
I have no idea who had the car on that day ! How am I honestly meant to remember.

Upon receiving the request to name the driver you have to use reasonable diligence to identify them.

If you do not know and cannot identify them after that reasonable diligence then you have the basis for a statutory defence. To escape conviction you would have to convince the bench - it's not impossible but is difficult. For a not guilty plea the matter would go to trial where should you lose the sentence will be 6 points, a fine, surcharge and prosecution costs (could be £600+).

Unfortunately (perhaps) 2 other drivers have been put in a similar position. Although, their obligation is to only provide information that could lead to the identification of the driver. It would be hard for the prosecution to show that they had information they did not reveal.

The speeding itself is mostly irrelevant as that can only be convicted if plead guilty to. (There are times when this is a good idea - the 'plea bargain' where the more serious charge is dropped in favour of the underlying speeding)

Clearly only one person was driving at the material time so the plea bargain would only be available to one defendant as all dual-charged.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but a simple course or fixed penalty has turned into 3 people being prosecuted. (Although the non-keepers appear to have better odds)

The relevant legislation is here. Note the (a) and (b) on subsection 2.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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gilan02
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:27
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QUOTE (kayla1999 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:21) *
What an awful mess ! When we tried to figure out who was driving we did so thinking it was the day the GCSE results were published, and it wasn't that day!

The likelihood now with the correct date being considered I probably would have been driving


Are you confusing GCSE with A-Level? A-Level results day was the 16th.

This post has been edited by gilan02: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:28
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Jlc
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:29
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QUOTE (kayla1999 @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:21) *
The likelihood now with the correct date being considered I probably would have been driving

Which doesn't help any defence as it appears you could have identified the driver.

So, you'll have to attend court and attempt the plea bargain. The other 2 defendants may well have to defend the s172 charges at trial if the Police do not discontinue following your sentencing. (Timing could be an issue here)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:30


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:30
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kayla1999 has already said he was probably driving so discussions about reasonable diligence are somewhat irrelevant now.

The key things IMO are:

a) Is kayla1999 dual-charged, if so he should be able to plead guilty to speeding and see his own s172 charge dropped
b) Can all three cases be heard at the same time? If so, a case could be put to the CPS that, because a guilty plea for the underlying offence will be entered, it is no longer in the interests of justice for the other s172s to be pursued. There's no guarantee the CPS will agree, but it's definitely worth a try.


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Jlc
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:33
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Agreed, RD may be too late but it's important to understand the position. (At least for any future requests)

But I think it's a she rather than a he...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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kayla1999
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 13:39
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All 3 people have both charges

What a mess ! All because of genuine confusion over a date !
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The Rookie
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:15
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If you were driving and dual charged you will have the opportunity to plea bargain to just the speeding, it’s routine and happens all the time.

The others being a someone other than the keeper only had to give power in there information to give, (what they know) they did not have to perform reasonable diligence (go looking for information) as such as long as they replied saying ‘I don’t know but it could have been.......’ then they have a simple defence of giving the information in their power to give.

Get you head round this, it’s confusing but not complicated and you’ll see the mess isn’t really that big.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
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kayla1999
post Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:18
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 23 Nov 2018 - 14:15) *
If you were driving and dual charged you will have the opportunity to plea bargain to just the speeding, it’s routine and happens all the time.

The others being a someone other than the keeper only had to give power in there information to give, (what they know) they did not have to perform reasonable diligence (go looking for information) as such as long as they replied saying ‘I don’t know but it could have been.......’ then they have a simple defence of giving the information in their power to give.

Get you head round this, it’s confusing but not complicated and you’ll see the mess isn’t really that big.


Thank you and thank you to everyone else for your time and advice
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