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PC issued whilst parking in (decommissioned) disabled bay
cherub
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 09:47
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Yesterday, my mother's car received a PCN from LB Hounslow whilst parked outside her house in what had once been a disabled parking bay, but which was decommissioned following my father's death (it was for his use that the bay was originally installed) over 2 years ago.

At the time (i.e. in 2016), the council removed the signage post for the disabled bay from the pavement (immediately outside her house) and painted over the white paint on the road which said "Disabled" and indicated the bay's presence. Since then however, the black paint which covered the word "Disabled" has worn off, so the original (white) letters are now visible again.

What is the best way to challenge this please? Probably, I could spend hours researching when the Council recinded the disabled bay, but I really don't have the time as mum's full time carer and with a 2 year old! Furthermore, surely the onus is on the Council to ensure that the (outdated) writing indicating that the bay is Disabled is kept up to date?

Thanks in advance for any help,

Cherub
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post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 09:47
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hcandersen
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:37
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Don’t bother, it would only be unnecessary icing on the cake.

The cake is: is there a traffic sign indicating the nature of the restriction? Hopefully you could provide a photo and the authority’s. Yours would be just as good because if there’s no sign now there wasn’t one yesterday!
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Longtime Lurker
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 10:53
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Yes, the traffic sign (or lack of one) is key.

Post a link to google street view showing the location, then we can advise you how to approach the challenge.

Google street view may also help with proving the bay was decommissioned, you can look at different dates and possibly get some evidence that the black paint was there.
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DastardlyDick
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 19:16
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No sign = unenforceable.

Have you seen Hounslow's photo's? They're viewable online.
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cherub
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 20:01
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Hello there - thank you for your feedback. Deffo no signage- though I can present a photo of the filled in hole where they removed the signage post.
Not looked on line yet, as have been up to my ears here. But I’ve taken photos of the bay and also the Disabled indicator painted on the tarmac.. you can se where the black paint LBH slapped on when the space was decommissioned has worn off!
Is it possible to do easy uploads on here from a phone?

Sorry, can’t upload pictures, but they just reflect my comments above.
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DancingDad
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 20:09
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I assume that the PCN is for parking in a disabled bay without displaying blue badge ???

If so, what the others have said, the bay must have a post mounted sign.
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phantomcrusader
post Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 20:17
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 20:16) *
No sign = unenforceable.

That was the case under the TSRGD 2002 but is it the case under the TSRGD 2016? I don't see that it is.

The TSRGD 2002 and now the TSRGD 2016 prohibit placing "DISABLED" bays unless they are supported by either a TRO or TMO. There is no lawful thing as an "advisory" disabled bay. In fact the law clearly prohibits it.

See Part 7 here

Nonetheless councils ignore the law and even make an extortionate unlawful charge when doing so like this £193.00 one. and this £85.00 one. So the law prohibits "DISABLED" bays that can't be enforced and no where does the law allow a charge for placing an unlawful bay! This incompetence and fraud spreads nationwide.

This post has been edited by phantomcrusader: Fri, 31 Aug 2018 - 20:46
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cherub
post Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 15:46
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Thank you for your help. I have challenged on the basis the bay was decommissioned over two years ago, the signpost being removed and the Disabled lettering being painted over with black paint.
I uploaded pictures showing there was no sign post and others showing where the black paint (which had been painted over the original white) is still visible. I’ll update you with the outcome. Tbh, I’d be amazed if LBH accepts the appeal - I’m sure they just issue standard letters in the first instance, no matter what the circumstances...

This post has been edited by cherub: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 15:47
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cherub
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 11:14
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I have just received an email from LB Hounslow REJECTING my appeal:

We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty Charge Notice.
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking in a bay signposted 'Disabled badge holders' without a disabled badge (and clock if it was also needed) that was valid and correctly displayed. Even if you have a valid disabled badge, you need to display it correctly (with the clock where necessary).
We have noted the points raised in your letter, however there are clear road marking informing motorists that it is a disabled persons bay. You are not allowed to park in this bay without a valid disabled badge displayed even if it is no longer used by the person it was intended for.
The enclosed photos help to show why your Penalty Charge Notice was given.
[PHOTOS ATTACHED]

You have these choices:
• You can pay the discount charge of £55.00 if your payment reaches us within 14 days of the date of this letter.
• You can pay £110.00 within 28 days of the date your Penalty Charge Notice was issued.
• As you have made a challenge (informal representation) you can still make a formal representation against your Penalty Charge Notice by using a Notice to Owner form. The vehicle's owner will automatically receive the form if the Penalty Charge Notice has not been paid within 28 days of its issue date. If you decide to make a formal representation against your Penalty Charge Notice, please do not write to us again but wait until the Notice to Owner form arrives. When the form arrives, it will be too late to pay at the discount rate. The form will guide you through the representation and/or payment options. Should you make a representation that we do not accept, there is a further option to appeal to an independent parking adjudicator at the Environment and Traffic Adjudicators. This will be explained in our response to the representation. You must go through the process of making a formal representation with the Council before exercising your rights to appeal. This will enable the independent parking adjudicator to determine whether your case has been considered fully by the Council.

How to pay
• online at www.hounslow.gov.uk
• by phone (24 hours). Please have your credit or debit card and Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) ready. Then call 0333 800 0107.
• by post Please make your cheque payable to 'London Borough of Hounslow', write your Penalty Charge Notice number (see above) and vehicle registration on the back, then send it to: London Borough of Hounslow (Parking Services), PO Box 211, Sheffield S98 1NG.

I AM FURIOUS!!!!! PLEASE CAN ANYONE HELP?

My original appeal was worded as follows:
A disabled parking bay was originally installed outside [address] for the use of my disabled father.
Following my father's death in January 2016 and further to petitioning by other residents in the road, the disabled parking bay was decommissioned - the white road signage was painted over with black paint by the Council and the post mounted sign on the pavement was removed.
Over time, the black paint covering the original white paint has worn off - I submit photographs which illustrate this - but the sign has not been reinstated. In essence, this is not a disabled bay, because it was decommissioned over two years ago (perhaps the Council could check its records) and there is no post-mounted traffic sign on the pavement indicating the nature of the restriction (see photographs of the cemented area on the pavement where this has been removed).
This PCN is therefore invalid and I look forward to receiving confirmation that it has been cancelled.
It would further be helpful if the Council could refresh the black paint covering the 'Disabled' road marking so this does not happen again. My mother is 89 years old, her car is almost invariably parked outside our house and it is not helpful to be issued with invalid PCNs.

I will upload photos if I can work out how to do so, but all they do is illustrate the exact situation as explained above.

Thank you for any help. It is beyond belief that the Council can be so utterly stupid - and also inconsistent... we no longer park in the "disabled" bay, but other people do, and they have yet to receive PCNs!
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 11:36
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What road is this?

If you want to email me pics I'll post for you - marcb@csi.com

Looks like a silly time waster by Hounslow.

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cherub
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 11:55
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Thanks Marc - it's Roman Road and I'll email you the pictures. I just can't believe LBH's attitude. I look after my mum and my 2 year old, so I really don't have time for the additional stress of an unwarranted fine!
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:09
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OP, you’ve challenged, they’ve rejected and yet despite us asking you’ve not posted the photos.

They say ‘ You were given a Penalty Charge Notice for parking in a bay signposted 'Disabled badge holders' without a disabled badge ‘

You say there’s no sign.

The photos show?????

The reality is?

The road markings are irrelevant if there’s no sign.

Don’t tell us, show us.

Photos pl.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:10
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:10
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Hounslow's system shows one disabled bay active in Roman Road as below. Is this the one, outside 2/2A? If so it's still live as of 30 July but can't be enforced if no sign.

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cherub
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:24
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Hi there - I'm afraid I'm not very technically-minded re the pictures, but Stamfordman very kindly offered to help and I've just emailed them to him, so hopefully they'll be posted shortly.
Stamford man - that is amazing you've found it. Can't understand why they took the post away and painted the road markings off if it wasn't deactivated... Without sounding paranoid, do you think they could have reactivated it, simply to try and uphold the ticket? Or sheer incompetence??
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hcandersen
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:31
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OP, I don’t understand your question.

Even though we’ve not seen the photos, you know exactly whether there is a sign or not, the photos will merely confirm this.

And is there or isn’t there a sign?

Good on stamfordman’s research, but this doesn’t erect a traffic sign: was there/is there a sign where the vehicle parked???
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:36
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Don't be so impatient HCA. Give us working stiffs on zero hour zero pay contracts a chance.

Here are two pics - no sign, filled in post hole. When councils send out orders for new disabled bays they often also revoke bays not needed. Hounslow does this as can be seen in its traffic order docs for disabled bays. Clearly this one has slipped through the revocation net so far but maybe is on their list for the next batch order.





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cherub
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 12:51
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@Hcanderson - as I stated in my PCN appeal, there was no sign - I explained that it had been taken down and uploaded the photos to prove this. Further, the road signage was painted out at this time too, which I also proved (stamfordman has photos showing this too), although it seems that this might be something of a red herring
@stamfordman - many thanks for posting the photos
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 13:19
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Similar case from earlier this year, in Barnet.


http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=118343

Cherub - if you look in that thread you'll see what they really do when removing road markings - if they did put paint over them that wasn't enough.

Did your mother receive any letters about decommissioning the bay?

In any case your formal appeal is a slam dunk as they say the bay is signposted. I take it your mother is the registered keeper - check the V5C reg doc to ensure the address is correct. The formal appeal has to come from the owner/keeper but you can draft it for her. Now you just wait for the notice to owner.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 14:04
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cherub
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 16:29
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No, my mother did not receive a letter about the bay being decommissioned. I believe she wrote to request it’s removal, as one of the neighbours was complaining about it still being there following my father’s death (as we’d returned his blue badge, we couldn’t park there either, so it was effectively blocking a parking spot) but she didn’t get a reply, we just went out the house one morning and found the post gone and the markings painted over! I don’t quite understand how/why the council can justify standing by the pcn if it needs a sign to be enforceable.

Mum is the registered keeper of the car, and the address is correct. She is nearly 90, and so stressed by this she’s considering paying up anyway. I think it’s outrageous and am urging her to stand firm (obviously I’ll continue to be the one that fights it).
Sounds like I should sit and wait for the NTO now. To reassure my mother we’re in the right though, is there a particular bit of traffic legislation I can show her that states that there must be a post mounted sign for disabled bays to be enforceable?
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Sep 2018 - 16:45
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I think you should email them now enclosing those two pics and ask them to check their records as they have clearly decommissioned the bay and contrary to their rejection they removed the signpost. They may not reply but it may head off the NTO.
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