Notice to Owner Received without a PCN on Car - Parked in a Suspended Bay with a Blue Badge, Notice to Owner - No PCN Received - Blue Badge in Suspended Res Bay |
Notice to Owner Received without a PCN on Car - Parked in a Suspended Bay with a Blue Badge, Notice to Owner - No PCN Received - Blue Badge in Suspended Res Bay |
Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:32
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 23 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,736 |
Dear all,
Hope everyone is well. I am have used this website successfully previously about 4 or so years ago but unfortunately I have forgotten the username I registered with. And apparently I can not receive my "fotgotten password" email because I do use hotmail which is weird so I am having to sign up again as new. Anyways I am stuck in a bit of a conundrum about what to do in the situation I find myself in. I have received a Notice to Owner with no prior PCN for a contravention that I was completely unaware had ocurred. Actually it is a contravention that I though was not possible given that the contravention was for "Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space - residents` bay" despite having a blue badge on display and having parked there for years. Anyways imagine my surprise when I receive a letter through the post last week saying that I would need to pay £130 (£195 if I do not pay in 28 days) within 28 days from 2 days after the posting of the letter (Notice posted 9th Feb). Even more surprising was the fact that this was for a contravention that had allegedly happened in October. Using the Notice to Owner it is clear there are pictures up showing that there was a ticket attached to the vehicle however it was not there the next time I went to drive the car. Now I am confused whether to just pay the £130, to appeal on the grounds that the ticket was not there when I went to drive the car to try to pay the reduced amount which I assume is half the £130 they are now asking for, or whether there are any other grounds to appeal based on having a disabled badge in a suspended residents bay or for any other reason. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks a lot. Images attached below This post has been edited by bergy10: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:38 |
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Fri, 23 Feb 2018 - 17:32
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:04
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#41
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Member Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 23 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,736 |
The OP has written 'Furthermore I do not believe the parking suspension signs were up when I had validly parked my car with a blue badge where the alleged contravention took place as I sometimes leave my car for days on end without driving' Not the best start to a defence by claiming that they would have been parked lawfully without the signs when they wouldn't, even worse admitting that they do it regularly. The OP should leave out this reference because it can only harm them. The BB is irrelevant so reference to parking unlawfully with it should be removed. Ok I understand. What I don't understand though is if parking with a blue badge is not allowed there then surely I would have received at least a handful of tickets over the past 4 years or so since I had been parking there. Also like I mentioned others park in the same place and I see badges on their cars with no tickets either. Plus like I mentioned in the handbook of Camden, the only reference to Permit Holder parking that is not allowed are the ones specifically for Traders that have the specific T-xx numbers. |
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:06
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#42
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Member Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 4 Mar 2014 Member No.: 69,189 |
Usually, permit bays, whether they be resident, business or some other type, require a payment for the permit so that the car can be left in the permit parking place. Does this not invoke regulation 9.1.a?
QUOTE Exemptions from other provisions of orders under section 45 or 46 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984
9.—(1) This regulation applies to an order made under section 45 or 46 of the 1984 Act which prescribes– (a)a charge to be paid for a vehicle or vehicle of any class left in a parking place designated by the order; (b)a maximum period during which a vehicle may wait in a parking place; or ©a period which must elapse before a vehicle taken away from a parking place may be left there again. (2) An order to which this regulation applies shall include an exemption, from each of the matters so prescribed, in favour of a vehicle displaying a disabled person’s badge in the relevant position. |
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:06
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#43
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,073 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
No.
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:12
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 195 Joined: 4 Mar 2014 Member No.: 69,189 |
No. OK. Why not? What criteria of 9.1.a is not met? When my parents visited Devon & Cornwall they could park in permit bays with their blue badge. I also notice from reading other threads that adjudicator's have accepted that blue badge holder's can park in loading bays. This view is contrary to the blue badge guidance booklet. It does cast doubt on the reliability of the blue badge booklet. This post has been edited by Wretched Rectum: Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:27 |
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:18
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#45
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
No. I don't disagree with HCA in that the BB is not relevant to the contravention. however Camden's website might give an insight to the OP's parking habits https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/navigation/tr...sabled-permits/ Although it states resident permit bays, given the OP's assertion as to parking it could well be that this is how the council are classifying this bay. This would not be to far out given that a BB is an exemption to code 16 -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Thu, 1 Mar 2018 - 22:31
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#46
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Member Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 23 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,736 |
No. I don't disagree with HCA in that the BB is not relevant to the contravention. however Camden's website might give an insight to the OP's parking habits https://www.camden.gov.uk/ccm/navigation/tr...sabled-permits/ Although it states resident permit bays, given the OP's assertion as to parking it could well be that this is how the council are classifying this bay. This would not be to far out given that a BB is an exemption to code 16 It is also pretty much what the diagram on where you can not park mentions in the blue badge booklet from Camden. The permit parking places restricted are those for specific purposed with dedicated numbers and people. There is no mention of restrictions on shared permit holder bays that do not specify a specific a specific permit holder. It is probably why I and others who park on my road with a blue badge are not constantly being givem tickets on a daily basis until we learn. I don't think a CEO will decide not to put a ticket on a car out of the goodness of his heart if it is a ticketable offence. I only mention the blue badge as if I was parked there before they put the signs up then they would woner what right I had to park there for such a long period of time without a permit or a badge. |
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Tue, 6 Mar 2018 - 09:39
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#47
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Member Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 23 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,736 |
HC, I just realised now, if you look at the Notice to Owner itself, you can see that the contravention says “Parked wholly or partly in a suspended bay or space - residents` bay”
This can be seen in both the NtO as well as in the contravention page on the Camden website. So in addition to the fact that I have never received a PCN for parking there for 4 years as well as the Camden Blue Badge handbook mentioning that the restricted Permit Holder Bays are specific numbered trader bays, leads me to believe that I was correct in my assumption that these are actually resident bays. Thanks anyways. Just about to send off the NtO appeal now when I had realised they used residential bays in their own wording in the NtO. Will still leave out the Blue Badge bit as it makes no difference anyways but just thought I would let you all know. This post has been edited by bergy10: Tue, 6 Mar 2018 - 09:40 |
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Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 09:51
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 178 Joined: 23 Feb 2018 Member No.: 96,736 |
Just a quick update,
Having submitted representations as drafted previously, I have been contacted by Camden Council. They have justified their grounds for rejecting each of my different points of contention as follows: Criminal or Maliciously Removed PCN from Vehicle without my Knowledge: QUOTE "Neither the council nor the CEO can be held responsible for what may happen to a PCN once it has been served to a vehicle, and if it is not found by the driver this does not invalidate the Notice." Unnecessary Delay in Issuing Notice to Owner: QUOTE "the Council have up to six months from the date of the contravention to issue a NTO, and as the contravention date was on 12/10/2017, I am satisfied that the statutory process has been followed correctly." Validity of Parking Suspension Contravention if Car was Parked before Signs were Displayed: QUOTE "Whilst I note your comment, the terms and conditions for resident permit holders states, ‘Parking bays may be suspended from time to time and the council will display warning notices in advance of such suspensions on the adjacent time-plates. It is the responsibility of the permit holder to make themselves aware of these suspensions by reading the relevant notices. Your vehicle may be issued with a Penalty Charge Notice and could be removed when parked in a suspended bay.’ Accordingly, the permit holder must check the bay regularly for any impending suspensions. Once the warning signs are in place, it is the driver`s responsibility to ensure that their vehicle is not parked within the suspended area." Ambiguity of the use of "Spaces" in the Parking Suspension Signage: No Comment However to end the letter they finish by saying they will cancel the PCN because their QUOTE "suspension records indicate that an advance warning sign was placed in this location at 23:05 on 10/10/2017 therefore I believe that the warning given in this instance was not sufficient to inform drivers of the change in restrictions. As such, I have formally accepted your representations and cancelled the PCN." So yeah, good news, PCN cancelled. Thanks to everyone who helped, especially, and in no particular order PASTMYBEST, Wretched Rectum, Stamfordman, Mad Mick V, and Incandescent. You guys have been a great help. |
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Wed, 21 Mar 2018 - 10:50
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#49
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Well done !
A typical disingenuous letter from an apparatchik in their parking department. Whilst the law allows up to 6 months for issuing an NtO, the Statutory Guidance advises of a much shorter period and states that there has to be a very good reason for delay in the issue of an NtO. The issue of fairness at common law also trumps whatever the statute says. QUOTE Issuing the Notice to Owner
9.9 If the penalty charge is not paid the enforcement authority may issue a Notice to Owner. The purpose of this is to ensure that the penalty charge notice was received by the vehicle owner and to remind the vehicle owner that the payment in full is now due and if it is not paid within a further 28 days it may be increased. The Notice to Owner may be issued 28 days after serving the penalty charge, and we expect authorities to send them within 56 days. The ultimate time limit, in exceptional circumstances, is six months from the “relevant date”. There should be a very good reason for waiting that long to serve a Notice to Owner. The Regulations set out the information that the Notice to Owner must give. There are different requirements when the penalty charge notice acts as the Notice to Owner (see paragraph 8.6) |
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