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SORN'd Vehicle Fine in Car Park, My car was impounded and then destroyed and now I have received a fine
PEMU
post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 23:19
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Dear Members,
My SORN'd vehicle was in a council car park and removed and destroyed without warning. My case seems quite similar to this one which I have just come across now (after a lot of previous unsuccessful searches to find what to do). Mine was also kept in a car park owned and maintained by the council:
http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t114592.html

I need to send my appeal off tomorrow and I'd really appreciate some advice on what exactly to write in my appeal, especially in light of the above case. If anyone could recommend the exact wording that would really help as I haven't done something like this before.

Thanks a lot.
I'm going to paste a more detailed description below of my case which I previously wrote up for another forum:



I've been given a £340 fine from DVLA (pictures attached) which I would like to dispute and need your kind help with. 


A: The background:
1. I had an old runaround which I wasn't using at the time and was considering putting back on the road when my wife passes her test. 
2. We have a residential car park behind our house which, to my knowledge, is council property. To my knowledge, yes, it is technically maintained by them (although they never actually carry out any maintenance and repair the craters AKA potholes).
3. Now and then we get abandoned cars and the council puts notices on them and then removes. Last time they came round, I asked the officer and he told me I will be fine to leave my car there as long as I SORN it, which I did. 
4. Based on online reading I have now done, I think he was either just talking from the perspective of vehicles the council removes and not the DVLA's perspective, or he just got it wrong. 
5. In hindsight, I understand I should have been smarter and not taken his word and double checked and not left the car there as it seems it might still be deemed as on the public road. 
6. Unless someone has any strong evidence otherwise, I'm happy to concede I made a misjudgement and am looking for advice on what to with the fine now. It was an innocent mistake in the sense that I never meant to do anything wrong or dodge any rightful charges. 


B: Things that don't seem right or could potentially be avenues to explore:


1. They didn't give me any warning, clamp or notice and just removed the car suddenly. 

2. I received the letter telling me of it being impounded after 8th Feb which is when it was already destroyed (although it is dated on 5th Feb). I can't think of how I can prove which day I received the letter though, even if that's of relevance.

3. They have spelled the name of the car park wrong by writing a double N at the end of the name instead of one N, so "***nn" instead of "***n" 
4. The original impound letter says they search for vehicles that don't have tax or SORN and they said my vehicle met neither, but it was SORN'd which they acknowledge in the second fine letter. I might be reading the letter wrong though. 

C: Things I would like advice on:

1. Is it worth telling the DVLA my sob story in the hope of some sort of concession or full/partial let off and if so, what's the best approach for that (call/letter, etc.)?

2. Is it just an urban myth or can fines actually be contested on technicalities like them spelling the name of the car park wrong or implying I didn't have it SORN'd in the first letter?
3. Do they have to give a warning or anything or can they just impound the car immediately and is that a worthwhile line of complaint? If they put a warning/clamp for a few hours, my neighbours and I might have missed it (they would have told me if they saw something). 
4. What is likely to happen now and what's the best avenue for me to explore?

D: Potential Actions I have thought of:
1. Write a long letter to dispute the fine based on all of the above (so plea for compassion as well complaint)
2. Only appeal for compassion for now
3. Dispute on the grounds of the car park name being wrong, if that's even a thing
4. Dispute on grounds they gave no warning/notice 
5. Any other combination of above, or something else you can recommend

I'd really everyone's thoughts and input. 
Thanks

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post Wed, 3 Apr 2019 - 23:19
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cp8759
post Thu, 23 May 2019 - 18:17
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QUOTE (PEMU @ Thu, 23 May 2019 - 17:36) *
After failing to find anything relevant on Google, can anyone kindly explain what a TMO is and how to obtain one (and what the purpose would be)?

The Traffic Management Order is what makes a council car park a car park. Helpfully, car park orders often have "off-street" in the name so that would support the contention that the land in place is not a road. The TMO will also designate the parking bays in the car park as parking places using off-street powers contained in the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984, so it will prove you were not parked on a road.

This post has been edited by cp8759: Thu, 23 May 2019 - 18:19


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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PEMU
post Fri, 24 May 2019 - 18:14
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 23 May 2019 - 13:54) *
If it's a council car park, there should be a traffic management order designating it (or rather the bays within it) as off-street parking places, so rather than waiting for a reply for the council I'd simply get hold of the TMO and send that to DVLA.



So, I've managed to Google the following Enfield Council page where they have TMOs. I am assuming they are not exhaustive as there are only a few on there and Enfield is a large borough.
At the same time, seeing that there is no signage, etc., there is a chance there is no TMO. I have heard from residents that decades ago it was a Pay and Display car park, apparently, though.

https://goo.gl/Q1OLUe

The following address is mentioned in one of the TMOs I searched through "traffic@enfield.gov.uk". Should I just fire them an email asking if there is any TMO available for that car park and send any response they give as evidence if they say their isn't?

By the way, the car park has no signs on entry or inside.

This post has been edited by PEMU: Fri, 24 May 2019 - 18:28
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Logician
post Sat, 25 May 2019 - 12:55
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Ask for a TMO or confirmation that it is there car park, open to the public free of charge.

That website I gave does show that, so you could send them a print-out. You can use the Windows snipping tool to just get the bit you want in the right size, search for 'snipping tool' in Windows Help.


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localdriver
post Sat, 25 May 2019 - 15:56
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The DVLA reply in post 31 is not that accurate, A SORN is a valid exemption if the vehicle 'is not used or parked on a public road', no mention of 'private land'. A car park is not a road - public or private.







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PEMU
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:46
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Afternoon everyone
So responded to the last letter as suggested saying I don't agree with the fine.
Attached is their latest response.

Can anyone advise what is likely to happen next and what I can/should perhaps do?


Edit:
Upload not working again so here's the text


"I have considered the facts further and can find no reason to alter my original decision. As this is the
case, you must pay an out of court settlement of £340.00 by 01/07/2019 to avoid Court action.
Pay this penalty online at https://wwwssiovauk/pairdvla-fine
Vehicle Registration Penalty Reference:
To avoid court action, full payment must be received by 01/07/2019.
You can also pay by phone 0300 7906813 with a debit or credit card. Lines are open Monday to Friday
9am 5pm. We are unable to accept instalments.
Should you need to write, please quote the registration number of the vehicle.
Yours sincerely
Enforcement Officer
For and on behalf of the Secretary of State for Transport
Sent unsigned"

This post has been edited by PEMU: Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 11:49
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NewJudge
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 13:01
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Then you have two options:

1. Pay £340

2. Let them take you to court and argue your case on the basis that your vehicle was not on a road.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 13:02
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QUOTE (PEMU @ Tue, 18 Jun 2019 - 12:46) *
Edit:
Upload not working again so here's the text

Time to read the FAQ......

As for the reply, you'll just have to let them embarrass themselves in court.


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cp8759
post Thu, 20 Jun 2019 - 20:50
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Did you get hold of the TMO?

Personally I'd let them take it to court, and then apply for costs on the basis that the prosecution was an improper act. It is very rare for an order for costs to be made against a prosecutor, but it can happen where the prosecutor institutes proceedings even when he knows, or should have known, that the evidence available to him could not, even if accepted, enable the court to convict.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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