Charge Certificate notice - do I need to pay? Options

[explorer87]

Hi all,

First post here so please go easy.

On the 22nd May 2018 I performed a contravention 50(J) which is performing a prohibited turn from Barnet Council. The fine was £130 with a 14 day 50% discount period, which would rise to £195 if paid after.

I appealed this on the grounds that the signs of this prohibited turn were restricted to which it got rejected on the 4th July.

I then had a further 14 days discount period. However at this stage this is where it becomes tricky. The letter stated that I had two options:

1. To pay the fine for £65 with 14 days and the matter is closed (or £130 within 28 days)
2. To lodge an appeal with an independent adjudicator.

On the 17th July I paid the £65, but also appealed with the adjudicator on the same day thinking if the free appeal gets accepted I will be entitled to a refund of the £65. Unfortunately one week the appeal got rejected and the letter advised me to pay the charge. As I had already paid the charge at the discounted rate I didn't think there was anything further I needed to do.

However last week Barnet Council wrote to me advising that since the appeal has been rejected and it is more than 28 days since the 4th July, I now owe a further £130. Failure to pay within 14 will incur a further charge of £8 and a debt passed onto the county court.

I spoke to them on the phone this morning and they advised me that the letter on the 4th July states you can either pay the charge or appeal. Since I have done both, this apparently re opened the case despite paying the £65 charge at the discounted rate.

Please advise what your thoughts are at this stage.

Many thanks

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[stamfordman]

Paying closes the case. Appealing keeps it open. You can't do both.

Are you saying your adjudication was held in 1 week? That isn't right surely.

Post all the docs.

Use a site such as https://imgbb.com and post the BBcode links.

[explorer87]

On the same day I payed the fine, I appealed to an independent adjudicator as I believed I didn't have anything to lose.

As I lost the formal appeal but payed at the fine at the discounted rate, do I have to pay the additional £130 that Barnet Council are demanding?

The result of the adjudication was made on the 17th August, which states that I must pay the full amount of the PCN within 28 days otherwise the enforcement authority can increase their charge by 50%

This post has been edited by explorer87: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 08:36

[Neil B]

Still not making sense.

What is the tribunal case number?

[explorer87]

Paying closes the case. Appealing keeps it open. You can't do both.

Are you saying your adjudication was held in 1 week? That isn't right surely.

Post all the docs.

Use a site such as https://imgbb.com and post the BBcode links.

Apologies the result of the appeal with London Tribunals was held on the 17th August.

Still not making sense.

What is the tribunal case number?

I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

[Earl Purple]

When you paid £65 had the discount period already passed, in which case you paid only half the penalty and didn't clear it. Thus it is not a fully paid PCN. I guess that is what happened and then it went through to the Charge Certificate phase.

There are two "appeals", one with the council and one with the independent tribunal. And with the council there are often 2 phases, an informal and a formal one. Informal ones will often be rejected but allowing you to still pay the discount rate.

[PASTMYBEST]

Yes case reference number.

Think I understand. You paid £65 then appealed, You thought that would be it. But you lost the appeal so the amount due was £130, you did not pay the other £65 so a charge certificate for that amount was served

Post the CC that will help clear things up

[Mr Mustard]

We need to see the Notice of Rejection as well please, especially the part setting out your choices so that we can compare what was offered with what the regulations state.

An adjudicator will probably regard you as trying to have your cake and eat it. When you lost, the tribunal letter will have told you what to pay and that there is no further reminder to pay. Can we see that letter also please.

An adjudicator has no power to reduce the value of a PCN. He is deciding if the PCN, worth £130, should be upheld or cancelled. He/she decided to uphold the PCN thus you owed £130 less £65 paid.

The whole point about 50% discounts is that they are inducements to not fight the PCN, a reward for saving the council's time. By making an Appeal to the tribunal you cost the council a £30 fee which won't have endeared you to them. (I think discounts should go and PCNs should be for more reasonable values but that is a point of view for general discussion).

[DancingDad]

Date of appeal decision 17th August 2018 ??
Date of Charge Certificate please ?

I think Barnett have used the wrong date to justify issue of the CC and as such have issued it early and unlawfully.
Which may give you another bite of the cherry and could get the PCN cancelled.
That you paid the £65 is irrelevant, key date is the date of the adjudication decision and when they say you have to pay, that is what sets the clock ticking.

But confirm dates above please.
And wording of LT decision on payment..... pay the £130 within 28 days of what date?
And does it use the word "within".... exact wording please.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 10:09

[explorer87]

Appreciate all the feedback guys.

As I have lost some of the paper work of the case I will give as much information as I can here.

PCN : AG90482327
Date of contravention : 22/05/18
Contravention : 50J - performing a prohibited turn.

Date of PCN issued 07/06/18
I then appealed this against the council on the ground there were not clear signs.

Appeal rejected 2nd July (I have lost this letter and have requested from Barnet council a copy of this).

According to the women from Barnet council yesterday the letter stated I had two options. To pay the PCN within 14 days at £65 or 28 days at £130. OR Appeal with London tribunals. If the appeal gets accepted PCN cancelled. If the appeal gets rejected I will have to pay the PCN.


16th July - Pay £65 PCN at reduced rate
16th July - Appeal online to London Tribunal (Case reference : 2180277632).

17th August : Email response from London Tribunal case rejected and must pay full PCN within 28 days.

14th September : Charge Certificate from Barnet Council wanting £195 to pay within 14 days other wise they 'may register the charge as a debt at the county court'. Also something to notice that the letter is demanding I must pay the increased penalty charge of £195 within 14 days. However when I go online to pay this it is only asking for £130 (it has deducted the £65 I have already paid). As the wording in this letter is not technically correct can the charge notice be cancelled on that ground?


Additionally I understand I am able to appeal the charge if:

Where an Order for Recovery has been made, liability for the penalty can then only be challenged in the following circumstances:

You did not receive the postal Penalty Charge Notice or Notice to Owner in question; or
You made representations to the enforcement authority concerned but did not receive a Notice of Rejection from that authority; or
You appealed to the adjudicator against the rejection by the enforcement authority of your representations but had no response to the appeal; or
The appeal had not been determined by the time the charge certificate was served, or it was determined in your favour; or
You had paid the penalty charge.


As I have paid the penalty charge on the 16th July, do I have a case to uphold paying a further £130?

[PASTMYBEST]

The CC is demanding to much, that would be a winning appeal if there is a way you can get there. but the council would have the right to demand £130

[Neil B]

I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !

[PASTMYBEST]

I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !

Post the case reference number, You might be able to ask for a review as new evidence has come to light. i:e the penalty exceeds the amount etc

[DancingDad]

Fooking 'ell, close but just on the right side.
Within 28 days of 17th August takes us to 14th Sept.
Which means that council are entitled to send a CC anytime after 14th but NOT on or before.
In doing so, it represents and unlawful demand for money, as said, ground of the penalty demanded exceeds the amount due within circumstances of the case.

Which is a new fact and entitles Op to a review in the interests of justice.
If LT accepts, should see the PCN cancelled, as minimum see the adjudicator instructing council to cancel the CC and provide a new period for payment.

[explorer87]

I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !

Post the case reference number, You might be able to ask for a review as new evidence has come to light. i:e the penalty exceeds the amount etc

Case reference : 2180277632

Barnet Council are saying the penalty exceeds the amount of £130 because I never paid the full PCN before the 14th September.

Do you believe I have a case, and if so what should my next stages be?

[DancingDad]

I have a case reference number with London Tribunals if that is what you are referring too?

and we DON'T !

Post the case reference number, You might be able to ask for a review as new evidence has come to light. i:e the penalty exceeds the amount etc

Case reference : 2180277632

Barnet Council are saying the penalty exceeds the amount of £130 because I never paid the full PCN before the 14th September.

Do you believe I have a case, and if so what should my next stages be?

And Barnett are wrong, pure and simple as long as that word "within" is in the decision and instructions to pay from adjudicator.
That word means that count starts on the day after the 17th.... well established legal fact.


My aim now would be to get the PCN cancelled..... that you have not paid the final £65 owing may be against you but does not alter that the council have blown it in issuing a CC early

[PASTMYBEST]

Lets be sure you understand what is happening.

You cannot challenge the charge certificate there is no mechanism for doing so That you have already paid is not really true.


What you want to do is apply to London tribunals for your case to be reviewed. The grounds for this to be done is that new evidence has come to light that could not be known before the appeal was heard.


This new evidence should consist of two parts.


That the charge certificate has been issued earlier than allowed by statute and that the amount demanded by the CC is in excess of that allowed by statute


Do not rush into this but be aware that time is not your friend. Post a draft here for review before sending

[Neil B]

And Barnett are wrong, pure and simple as long as that word "within" is in the decision and instructions to pay from adjudicator.
That word means that count starts on the day after the 17th.... well established legal fact.

One little issue is that the Tribunal is using flawed wording, at odds with legislation under which the deadline was 13th.

But as you say, an instruction from an adjudicator and they can instruct whatever they like I suppose.

---
I'm also curious if the adjudicator understood that £65 had already been paid? Given -
'Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.'

That the charge certificate has been issued earlier than allowed by statute

As I've just said, it isn't; it's only at odds with the adjudicator.

and that the amount demanded by the CC is in excess of that allowed by statute

I'm not getting that?

[Enceladus]

The decision is dated the 16th August. I take it this was not a personal hearing so you were informed of the outcome by post?
What date is on the decision letter, the 17th August maybe?
And do you have the envelope? Is there a postmark/franking mark? If yes, what date?

[PASTMYBEST]

And Barnett are wrong, pure and simple as long as that word "within" is in the decision and instructions to pay from adjudicator.
That word means that count starts on the day after the 17th.... well established legal fact.

One little issue is that the Tribunal is using flawed wording, at odds with legislation under which the deadline was 13th.

But as you say, an instruction from an adjudicator and they can instruct whatever they like I suppose.

---
I'm also curious if the adjudicator understood that £65 had already been paid? Given -
'Full penalty charge notice amount stated to be paid within 28 days.'

That the charge certificate has been issued earlier than allowed by statute

As I've just said, it isn't; it's only at odds with the adjudicator.

and that the amount demanded by the CC is in excess of that allowed by statute

I'm not getting that?

Op said the CC is demanding £195 so exceeds the amount due £130

We really need to see documents

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Tue, 18 Sep 2018 - 17:56