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Civil Enforcement Ltd, 2 Penalty Charge Notices
barkingmad62
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 09:37
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My daughter managed to get two Penalty charge Notices in the same private car park in Falmouth last year, about a month apart. Her car, registered to me, the charge notices came to me from CEL.

I ignored them all for months until last week, I got a county court summons for one of them.

I then had a look at the original notices that were sent to me. The first, pertaining to the summons had two images of her car. I decided to pay the charge since she had actually parked there and had photographs.

The second charge notice does not have any images of her car in the carpark. I had thought about getting in touch with them to ask for proof of offence having taken place but of course there is no way to get in touch except to pay the charge. I suspect I have to wait for the summons to ask for photographs or proof of the offence having taken place. Would I be correct in thinking this...?

Could someone advise how to proceed with this.?

The amounts are punitive ... £50 -£100- £182-£265 (court costs, admin charges etc)

The unpaid charge sits at £182

Many Thanks in Advance

If it is of any importance, the first charge notice that I have paid was from July 2018, the second, still outstanding is from September 2018... Is there a time limit on these...?

This post has been edited by barkingmad62: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 09:45
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post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 09:37
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ostell
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 09:49
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So you were not the driver, merely the registered keeper. As such they can only claim from you the amount of the original PCN (£100 ?) and the fixed court costs if it gets to court. Should be no more than £175

Post up a copy of the outstanding PCN, both sides, redacted but leave dates. What is the location?

SAR to CEL to retrieve the information if you don't have it. Here's a link to a SAR template.
. Be quick as they have 30 days to respond.

It is not a Penalty, it's an invoice for a sum that was agreed to be paid for breaking the condition of the parking contract. And you will not be getting a summons, it's a civil claim through the county courts.

Now where exactly was this in Falmouth? Some of the more notorious car parks in Falmouth are subject to byelaws and as such the keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. If you can show you were elsewhere at the time of the alleged breaches of conditions it would help.

The only time limit is 6 year limit of stating proceedings.

The legislation is Schedule 4 of The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012, commonly know as POFA.

This post has been edited by ostell: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 09:57
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barkingmad62
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:00
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:"Now where exactly was this in Falmouth? Some of the more notorious car parks in Falmouth are subject to byelaws and as such the keeper cannot be held liable for the actions of the driver. If you can show you were elsewhere at the time of the alleged breaches of conditions it would help."

CUSTOM HOUSE QUAY, FALMOUTH TR11 3JT

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barkingmad62
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:12
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As it happens, I had an appointment that day. I could probably get a statement from where I was, that I attended that meeting in London and therefore could not have been in Cornwall
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ostell
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:37
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Is this the place?

I believe this is byelaw land. I've searched but I can't get a definitive answer. It may pay to phone up the harbour commissioners and actually ask.

If it is subject then this would have been an appeal:


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The car park is not relevant land as defined by paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, being subject to FALMOUTH HARBOUR (GENERAL) BYE-LAWS. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

I was not the driver at the alleged time, and can show that, and as there is no legal requirement to name the driver I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:42
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QUOTE (barkingmad62 @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 10:37) *
I then had a look at the original notices that were sent to me. The first, pertaining to the summons had two images of her car. I decided to pay the charge since she had actually parked there and had photographs.
You could not possibly owe more than the original parking charge
If the car park was covered by the Harbour Byelaws you owed nothing at all
The additions are in any case fake
CEL always drops claims if they're challenged

The second charge notice does not have any images of her car in the carpark. I had thought about getting in touch with them to ask for proof of offence having taken place but of course there is no way to get in touch except to pay the charge. I suspect I have to wait for the summons to ask for photographs or proof of the offence having taken place. Would I be correct in thinking this...?
Never ask for evidence
It means that you agree that the payment is owed if the evidence can be produced

The photographs in any case prove nothing, only that the car entered and left the car park
It is entirely possible that your daughter did nothing more wrong than making a mistake with the registration number when she paid for parking
It's in the official minutes of Bridgnorth Council that CEL knowingly issued parking notices when a defective keypad was causing mistakes

Could someone advise how to proceed with this.?
Tell CEL that you weren't the driver and they've failed to meet the conditions of the Protection of Freedoms Act to have any right to recover payment from you as the keeper

If it is of any importance, the first charge notice that I have paid was from July 2018, the second, still outstanding is from September 2018... Is there a time limit on these...?
September 2024

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barkingmad62
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 11:10
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Please tell me how to get in touch with them...

I have spoken to my daughter and that is indeed the location...

Should I just use the address on the letterhead...and use this template... ?

Does this mean that I am liable only for the charge £100 and not the £182 that they now want from me 7 months on... or does it mean I am not liable at all...?


Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

The car park is not relevant land as defined by paragraph 3 of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012, being subject to FALMOUTH HARBOUR (GENERAL) BYE-LAWS. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

I was not the driver at the alleged time, and can show that, and as there is no legal requirement to name the driver I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

[/quote]
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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 11:14
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You are not liable at all
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ostell
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 11:26
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Get in touch with the harbour commissioners first and just check the extent of the byelaws. If byelaws exist then you have no liability at all and they can go whistle.

If you are liable then all you are liable for is £100 (+ fixed court costs)

(Fancy trying to recover what you paid previously by them pretending they had more authority than they actually had).
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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 11:58
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If the original parking notice referred to POFA, I would have a go for recovery

I might also be a bit demob happy after a grilling time in a witness box at the High Court

This post has been edited by Redivi: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 11:59
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ostell
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 13:24
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Was that you in high court then, Redivi?

Just check the status of the byelaws first and let us know, or get your daughter to check. make her do some work !

Getting the true status would be good as there have been several cases in that area and people don't always come back with the results.
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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 13:37
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Was that you in high court then, Redivi?

Looks like we're in the same email group

This post has been edited by Redivi: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 13:39
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barkingmad62
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 14:12
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FALMOUTH HARBOUR BYELAWS

https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/wp/wp-con...FHC-Byelaws.pdf

MORE PERTINENT...

Supervision of vehicles
36. A person having charge of a vehicle in the harbour premises shall at all times comply with any directions of the Harbour Master with respect to the loading, discharging, manoeuvring and removal thereof and shall not, without the permission of the Harbour Master -
(a) leave the vehicle unattended anywhere within the harbour premises except when lawfully left at a car park; or
(b) take it into any shed or working area.

Unauthorised parking of vehicles
42. (1) Any person leaving a vehicle in a parking place on harbour premises shall display on that vehicle a ticket issued by the Commissioners authorising the parking of that vehicle during such time as may be specified on that ticket.
(2) A person shall not leave a vehicle in a parking place on the harbour premises for longer than the time specified on the ticket issued in respect of that vehicle.

Does this help me at all...?

The legal intricacies, I am struggling...

I did phone them up, the harbour commissioners and I was told that I can write to them if I think Civil Enforcement are behaving badly or I am having difficulties with them... https://www.falmouthharbour.co.uk/car-parking/

This post has been edited by barkingmad62: Wed, 22 May 2019 - 14:16
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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 16:05
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Does this help me at all...?

Parking is included in the Byelaws therefore CEL cannot ever recover payment from the registered keeper under POFA

Send the Ostell letter for now

This is good for a long game - revenge as a dish best served cold

If CEL ignores it and continues the letter chain, wait until there's one from QFD or Wright Hassall solicitors (same company)
Respond to the second or third letter with "Not the driver"

Does the parking notice or any other document say that the keeper owes the payment ?

My thinking is not to warn CEL with any Letter of Claim to recover the original charge
Instead wait

CEL has the OP down as somebody who pays claims without question so another one is a near certainty
When the claim arrives, not only defend it but counter-claim to recover the original payment

CEL standard practice is to use claims as a low cost high pressure debt collection process and cancel the claims that are defended
That way a judge never sees its business practices

It won't be able to cancel without conceding the counter-claim
The only option to a hearing will be an offer to settle

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barkingmad62
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 16:55
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QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 17:05) *
Does this help me at all...?

Parking is included in the Byelaws therefore CEL cannot ever recover payment from the registered keeper under POFA

Send the Ostell letter for now

This is good for a long game - revenge as a dish best served cold


OK... that sounds great...

If CEL ignores it and continues the letter chain, wait until there's one from QFD or Wright Hassall solicitors (same company)
Respond to the second or third letter with "Not the driver"

Does the parking notice or any other document say that the keeper owes the payment ?

I don't think so, but will post the original Parking notice when I get home...

QUOTE (Redivi @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 17:05) *
My thinking is not to warn CEL with any Letter of Claim to recover the original charge
Instead wait


I have paid one notice after it went to court... I sh*t myself and paid the lot... I have a second notice, that is the one we are discussing... How can I issue a claim if I havent responded yet...?

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Redivi
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 17:56
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You can start the process to recover the first charge that you paid at any time
A counter-claim, however, doesn't need you to send a Letter Before Claim with a 30 days warning

It's also much more fun to do it when CEL thinks it's got you on the hook a second time

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ostell
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 21:40
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But make sure you get the info about the byelaws
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