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Parking Charge from PESS, How to appeal
Pavy
post Mon, 18 Oct 2021 - 08:52
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Hi All

I received a parking charge notice from PESS on 7th October, reasons given were for parking over 24 hours in a visitor bay. This is so unfair as it happened in the car park in my block of flats where I pay huge management charge!

I've not received one of these before, so I'm not sure what to do with it - should I appeal or complain to the concierge? Do they cancel this ticket immediately? What if I just ignore it?

Thanks for your help

Adding PCS that I received in post

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This post has been edited by Pavy: Thu, 21 Oct 2021 - 10:48
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Pavy
post Wed, 10 Nov 2021 - 14:07
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 10 Nov 2021 - 13:27) *
Except to confirm that my VRM has been addded to your "white list" so I will not be harassed in future. Might be worth a shot.

Debt collectors? Yawn.

Your response is poorly constructed, as it does not lead with your lease giving you the right to use the space, and as this is a lease with the freeholder, is far superior to an unknown 3rd party sticking up signs trying to offer something you already have.



I have just received your Notice to XXXX for vehicle VRM XXXX
As a registered keeper, I want to refute the charges as we have the right to park in the space as stated in our lease. Our lease doesn’t state any parking restriction via signage or require me to display a permit nor pay any charge
to a third-party company. This is a lease with the freeholder and is far superior to any unknown 3rd party sticking up signs. The signed lease supersedes the clause from your parking company. Hence, we are not obliged to comply with the parking restrictions from a private company, specially when its not part of the agreed contract. I do not expect to hear from you again except to confirm that my VRM has been added to your "white list" so I will not be harassed in future.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 10 Nov 2021 - 15:02
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Your not quite getting this

Your lease means yiu already have the right to park there
As such you have no need to be offered another, lesser licence to park by this parking company. They have no consideration to offer you - you can a,ready park there, regardless of the ppc - and withiut consideration there cannot be a contract.
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Pavy
post Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 11:44
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Wed, 10 Nov 2021 - 15:02) *
Your not quite getting this

Your lease means yiu already have the right to park there
As such you have no need to be offered another, lesser licence to park by this parking company. They have no consideration to offer you - you can a,ready park there, regardless of the ppc - and withiut consideration there cannot be a contract.



Dear Sir/Madam,

My lease confers on me the right to the space xx in the car park for which I have a contract with another for the facility. You can offer me nothing that I do not already have and so have no need of a contract with you. My contract does not require that I display a permit nor pay a third party stranger, I merely display one for the convenience of your operatives and does not imply that I agree to your contract.

I am the landholder and you are trespassing when you enter that space as you do not have a contract with me to operate, as required by your trade association.

[By requesting my personal details from the DVLA when you knew that I had no liability has breached GDPR and I reserve the right to take action on this matter. ]

I would suggest that you add my VRM to your whitelist so that this error is not repeated

I do not expect to here from you again other than to acknowledge that no further action will be taken on this matter.

Yours XXXX

This is the template I found from MSE newbies but PPC always reject initial appeal. Should I consider complaining to the management company. Apparently the concierge manager works for the estate and not management company. The PPC is appointment by the management company .




This post has been edited by Pavy: Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 11:45
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 11 Nov 2021 - 11:54
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Why have you decided you're the landholder?! Copy and paste without understanding? Do you display a permit, or is that more copy pasta?

It's a visitor space, it is NOT demised to you, you just have a right to use it.

Them rejecting isn't your concern. You don't care. If they're stupid and they try court, you'll beat them there.

Try
Cancel this charge. My lease confers on me the right to use the visitors spacesin the car park, does not require me to enter into a further "contract" with an unknown end party, does not require me to display a permit to use the space and it does not limit me to only use the space for a limited time. This lease has not been varied in accordance to the landlord and tenants act (insert date of act, I CBA to look it up) .

You can offer me nothing that I do not already have, meaning you lack any consideration and so no contract will ever be formed with you.

You are a stranger to my lease, and any contention by you that you have reasonable cause to access my data is rejected. In order to reduce further errors by you, I will allow you to retain my personal data but for only the express purpose of.a whitelist that you will maintain. If you do not agree to this then you must immediately ceas processing my data, and you must never breach my rights under the DPA2018 again. I reserve all legal remedies open to me should you do so, including suing you and your principal for breach of the data protection act, tortious interference with my lease, and obtaining a suitable injunction. This is your sole warning.



TELL the management company, don't bloody appeal. They work on your behalf and shouldn't be signing stupid contracts with ppcs which purport to do things not covered in your lease

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Pavy
post Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 15:50
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I have leased the property for over 125 years from the freeholder.
So my interpretation was I'm the landholder of my flat, allocated parking space and (visitor space if needed) for the lease term.

I gave a few attempts based on my understanding which is probably not at the expected level

Thank you @nosferatu1001 for your explanation.

I have drafted below letter to the management company, do share your thoughts

To the management company

I am writing to you with reference to PCN received regarding an alleged parking incident on 12th October

In order to take an informed decision on how to deal with the above-mentioned document I would like to request further information on this alleged incident and the alleged parking charges of £.

First, your Notice to Keeper mentions a company called PESS but fails to identify the actual creditor making this parking charge demand, as required under Schedule 4 paragraphs 8(2)(h) and 9(2)(h) of the PoFA 2012. Therefore, I would like you to send me this information, since I need to know exactly who is making the claim and in what capacity.

I would also like to receive all photographic evidence that you hold on this alleged incident. I do not expect to pay for this information as it would be disclosable in any future court proceedings.

I would be grateful if you could send me evidence that besides your management duties within the car park, you also enjoy the rights of possession or occupation needed to be able to enter into an individual contract with drivers and to issue parking charge notices. I therefore require you to send me a copy of the contract that gives you the authority to demand these payments regarding the time limits and sanctions they wish to impose.

Further to the above, if you are claiming there was a breach of contract or a contractually agreed sum, I would like to receive a copy of the contract which the driver/keeper allegedly entered into.

There is a significant legal precedent supporting the motorist in this area - in particular R. L. Davey vs UKPC [2013] before Winchester Crown Court 21st January 2013, and Case B6QZ4H3R, High Wycombe before Deputy District Judge Ellington, UKPC v Mr M [2016], both cases concerning where “Permit Only” parking was breached.

Also could you confirm (and I will use this response in any court case) whether yourself/the Management Agency receives any form of payment from PESS, either by way of a set fee for being allowed to operate on the premises, or by way of a 'commission' on tickets issued and/or paid.

Please note that I do not wish to receive a standard template answer which fails to address the specific issues that I have raised with you.

I look forward to receiving your acknowledgement within 14 days and a comprehensive reply within 35 days (in accordance with the BPA AOS Code of Practice B.22.8). Only then will I be able to make an informed decision as to how I shall respond to your Notice to Keeper.

Thank you!
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 17:43
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Huh? That doesn't make sense to the management company. They'll ignore or tell you to talk to the ppc

Having use of a space that is shared by others does not mean it's demised to you. If you had exclusive use of it, then yes. But according to the excerpt above, and entirely as you'd expect for a visitor space, it's shared. They can even change which are visitors spaces and you'd have to go use the new ones.
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Pavy
post Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 21:44
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 17:43) *
Huh? That doesn't make sense to the management company. They'll ignore or tell you to talk to the ppc

Having use of a space that is shared by others does not mean it's demised to you. If you had exclusive use of it, then yes. But according to the excerpt above, and entirely as you'd expect for a visitor space, it's shared. They can even change which are visitors spaces and you'd have to go use the new ones.



the space is not demised but a right is given to park. My lease does not require me to display a permit or park for any permitted time.

Homelands Registry, Land registration acts 1925 to 1986, Lease of part
Visitors parking space - parking space allocated from time to time for that purpose by the landlord

Schedule 2
The Demised premises
The included rights
6.5 Use the visitor’s parking spaces together with all others with the like right for occasional visitor's parking in any of the visitors parking spaces begin from time to time available
Schedule 9
Regulations
13. Not to park or allow to be parked on the parking space in the Demised Premises nor upon the Estate any commercial vehicles or vans or lorries exceeding 2500 KG
and any trailer boat caravan or any home on wheels motor caravans commercial vehicles horsebox and like moveable object and to use the parking space included in the Demised Premises for the parking of a private more vehicle only
14.Not to use or allow or permit the visitors parking space if any to be used other than by legitimate visitors to the estate.

I'm having nightmares, I have crossed 28 days and lost the discount period.
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hcandersen
post Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 22:28
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My goodness this is getting miles away from basics:

reasons given were for parking over 24 hours in a visitor bay.

I contacted them [management company] few times last week via email, explaining the mitigating circumstance and reinstating that I didn't park for a continuous 24 hours period,


So, which is it? You did or did not park for a continuous period of >24 hours?

Let's be clear: if you did not, then IMO this is your primary defence at present.

But when you refer to 'mitigating circumstance', this admits the transgression.

I am confused.

Disperse the fog of my uncertainty and give us facts.

On *** I parked in a visitor's bay. I moved my car at *** on ****.

But if this accepts their contention regarding the events i.e. more than 24 hours, then just tell us that you do not wish to challenge on this point.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 22:30
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Pavy
post Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 23:08
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 22:28) *
My goodness this is getting miles away from basics:

reasons given were for parking over 24 hours in a visitor bay.

I contacted them [management company] few times last week via email, explaining the mitigating circumstance and reinstating that I didn't park for a continuous 24 hours period,


So, which is it? You did or did not park for a continuous period of >24 hours?

Let's be clear: if you did not, then IMO this is your primary defence at present.

But when you refer to 'mitigating circumstance', this admits the transgression.

I am confused.

Disperse the fog of my uncertainty and give us facts.

On *** I parked in a visitor's bay. I moved my car at *** on ****.

But if this accepts their contention regarding the events i.e. more than 24 hours, then just tell us that you do not wish to challenge on this point.


We didn't park in that visitor parking bay for over 24 hours continuously. We may have parked interim for a short duration because we use the car for school runs every day. The only reason we use visitors' bay is to avoid the damaging car from berries falling off the trees. We have a dedicated bay for our car, so there is no reason why we should rely on a visitor bay except for the mentioned issue.

Precisely - Washed our car on 6th Oct @ 4.00 PM after school pickup and parked at visitors' bay with V parking permit. The next day drove the car for school drop-off @ 8.45 AM, parked our car back at the owner's bay, went for school pickup @ 4.30 PM, and on return, parked at the same visitor's bay with a V parking permit. Unfortunately, that was the only space unoccupied.

The observation picture from PESS had 6th Oct 9.57 PM and 07th Oct @ 10.07 PM.

This post has been edited by Pavy: Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 23:28
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 23:41
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Yes, so, OP YOU ARE NOT THE LANDHOLDER. If you were the landholder you would have exclusive rights. As I've said.

So there are two issues for them.

The first is - you have a superior right to use it than their signs can ever offer.
The second is - even if a court finds that you're bound by signs put up by an irrelevant third party , then on the facts of the matter there was no breach of these conditions.
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Pavy
post Sat, 13 Nov 2021 - 00:17
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Fri, 12 Nov 2021 - 23:41) *
Yes, so, OP YOU ARE NOT THE LANDHOLDER. If you were the landholder you would have exclusive rights. As I've said.

So there are two issues for them.

The first is - you have a superior right to use it than their signs can ever offer.
The second is - even if a court finds that you're bound by signs put up by an irrelevant third party , then on the facts of the matter there was no breach of these conditions.



So, should I wait for legal recovery actions or email the R&R management company who appointed PESS?

The PESS photographic images show tampered timestamp. Should I upload here for more advice?

This post has been edited by Pavy: Sat, 13 Nov 2021 - 00:24
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nosferatu1001
post Sat, 13 Nov 2021 - 00:34
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Well yes, if they're committing fraud...

What do you mean by "legal recovery actions"? Court? I wouldn't. You need to be seen to be reasonable, so that letter we kept working on, to the ppc, is a god start. You set out they're screwed, and the balls in their court.
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Pavy
post Sat, 13 Nov 2021 - 12:05
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https://ibb.co/GnRbGB3

Pictures from the PESS have not been consistent in the way the date timestamp has been captured It almost looks like someone has manually added the timestamp.

Also, it's evident that the car was not parked in the space for a continuous 24 hour period, as claimed in their PCN. The photos show the car was not parked in the same position.
Could this be another valid point in addition to the Primacy of Contract?

@nosferatu1001 I truly appreciate your time in responding and am sorry to be a pain. I'm not good with legal technicalities. Am I sending my appeal through PESS past 28 days
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nosferatu1001
post Sat, 13 Nov 2021 - 14:47
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It is Anot an appeal. It is a complete rejection of their. Invoice and any suggestion they have any claim against yiu.
This is to the parking company

So, just because time stamps aren't the same format, that's yiu saying fraud? Was the car there at or about the same time? Yes or no. If YES then...obviously that's not fraud!
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Pavy
post Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:35
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Sat, 13 Nov 2021 - 14:47) *
It is Anot an appeal. It is a complete rejection of their. Invoice and any suggestion they have any claim against yiu.
This is to the parking company

So, just because time stamps aren't the same format, that's yiu saying fraud? Was the car there at or about the same time? Yes or no. If YES then...obviously that's not fraud!



@nosferatu1001 thank you for your prompt response and feedback. I will email the parking company tomorrow

This post has been edited by Pavy: Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:42
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The Rookie
post Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 13:41
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QUOTE (Pavy @ Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:35) *
I will email the parking company tomorrow

PLEASE not without showing us first, otherwise a fear a foot will firmly be inserted into 'it'.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 13:41


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Pavy
post Wed, 17 Nov 2021 - 14:38
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 16 Nov 2021 - 13:41) *
QUOTE (Pavy @ Mon, 15 Nov 2021 - 22:35) *
I will email the parking company tomorrow

PLEASE not without showing us first, otherwise a fear a foot will firmly be inserted into 'it'.


Haven't sent it yet.

Dear Sir/Madam,
My lease confers on me the right to use the visitor's spaces in the car park, does not require me to enter into a further "contract" with an unknown end party, does not require me to display a permit to use the space and it does not limit me to only use the space for a limited time.
This lease has not been varied in accordance to the landlord and tenants act 1985.

You can offer me nothing that I do not already have, meaning you lack any consideration and so no contract will ever be formed with you.
You are a stranger to my lease, and any contention by you that you have reasonable cause to access my data is rejected. To
reduce further errors by you, I will allow you to retain my personal data but for only the express purpose of a whitelist that you will maintain.
If you do not agree to this then you must immediately cease processing my data, and you must never breach my rights under the DPA2018 again.
I reserve all legal remedies open to me should you do so, including suing you and your principal for breach of the data protection act,
tortious interference with my lease, and obtaining a suitable injunction.

Yours XXXX
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