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southpaw82
Posted on: Today, 18:30


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QUOTE (KH_ @ Wed, 17 Oct 2018 - 18:19) *
There was an interesting, and worrying, thing happened over the weekend that leads me to believe the police can track a vehicle without it necessarily being on the ANPR database as being 'watched'
Worrying in that a relative had gone missing, not the Big Brother aspect.

An elderly relative was due to travel to a town several hundred miles away with a stop at relatives along the way. Left early Saturday and at lunchtime Sunday was missing and uncontactable.
We got the police involved who told us, after a delay of a couple of hours, that the vehicle had been traced to the area of the final destination and, some time later, that the vehicle and driver had been located, both fine and nothing to worry about.
No more details than that.

This would suggest that they have been able to input the reg into their ANPR and monitor backwards for it. I had no idea that was possible, or perhaps they used some other method to 'trace' the vehicle

Yes. All vehicles that pass an ANPR camera have their VRM recorded and stored - I don't know how long for. This database is searchable, though searches over a certain period of time required the authority of a superintendent (in one of my forces). This is different to a vehicle being on the watchlist, where an ANPR 'ping' will result in an active alert on the system, rather than the VRM only being passively recorded.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1426158 · Replies: 10 · Views: 302

southpaw82
Posted on: Today, 10:52


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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:42) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:14) *
QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.


The only reasons I have is her anxiety & her not wanting her to have the distress of going to court, time taken to discuss it between the ups and downs, firstly not wanting to, based on the false info of a friend, then being in the frame of mind to have a sensible discussion, which delayed the it immensely, me trying not to be the pushy parent who then ends up pushing her in the opposite direction, followed by the other things coming through that need attention. She would rather not go to court at all and taking the points was weighed up against that, but now I pointed out she may lose her licence then the lesser issue would be going to court. It's mainly about mood & anxiety delays really? Although the fact given her issues they tried her in her absence, perhaps isn't fair, I genuinely believed they were going to drop the case and continued with a trial instead.

They’re not great reasons but they’re all she has. She has little to lose by putting the form in and seeing if leave will be granted on the papers. If it requires a hearing, and that hearing is contested by the prosecution, she’s at risk of costs if she loses.

I don’t see any real difficulty with the case being heard in her absence. She knew when it was but did not attend. If the court’s response was to drop it nobody would ever attend court!
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1426044 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,756

southpaw82
Posted on: Yesterday, 13:21


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If you were legally represented, it would be your lawyer’s duty to bring the guidance to the court’s attention. That being so, I don’t see how it could be to your detriment to do likewise.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425781 · Replies: 4 · Views: 347

southpaw82
Posted on: Yesterday, 12:14


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Behave, children.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1425738 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,411

southpaw82
Posted on: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:14


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QUOTE (Wheels @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 15:08) *
I don't have any & don't think he would, but my friend put the thought in my head?

Well, courts work on evidence. Your daughter can’t just pitch up and say “well, he might have done this or that” and expect the court to find that it was so.

As to being out of time, there is a discretion for the court to extend the time limit even after it has expired. Your daughter would need to show good reason for it being out of time. If you tell us those reasons it may be possible to give some guidance as to the prospects of success.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425391 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,756

southpaw82
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 22:27


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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 23:14) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 13:42) *
As a rule of thumb late appeals are accepted where either
1/ There’s was a good reason that the defendant couldn’t appeal earlier
2/ New information has come to light since that renders the conviction unsafe

There are of course sub groups within those but the vast majority fall into those two, neither of which appear to apply unless a court accept her illness rendered it impossible for her to appeal earlier which you may struggle with.

Any first appeal will see the case heard anew, what happened in the previous hearing will be a nullity. You’ll have to convince the judge that no S172 request was served. At that stage it would be worth minimising the effects of her condition in my opinion as it renders an oversight more likley.


A friend of mine asked if her ex partner may have taken the paperwork away so it wasn't found, he denies this, but I hadn't considered that before? If this turned out to be true, would this be new information that could clear my daughter, would this be classed as perverting the course of justice? I honestly don't think he did, but I'm just thinking out loud?

What evidence do you have of that?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425220 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,756

southpaw82
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 15:48


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QUOTE (Ruta @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 16:19) *
what would i just state who was driving

I would start with pointing out that the reverse of the form was blank so you will supply the driver’s name, address, date of birth and driving licence number (assuming you know these) and offering to supply further information if they need it.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425114 · Replies: 20 · Views: 961

southpaw82
Posted on: Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 15:16


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The s 172 requirement has been made, you need to comply with it. Reply using a signed letter.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1425107 · Replies: 20 · Views: 961

southpaw82
Posted on: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:10


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QUOTE (seank @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:25) *
Why would the owner of a vehicle (my company) make any difference to an authority delivering an NIP on time, or late, please?
Could you, kindly, answer the question that we are raising? What advice would you give this newbie, versus the result I saw, in person? Please, if you don't mind.
Tell me then, what is the use of this forum, in such cases.
Many thanks,

You haven’t answered my question though - what would you do?

I suspect the answer you’re looking for is “advise them to check when the NIP was served”. I’ve seen that advice given often enough, such as here, here and here. If that’s not the answer you’re looking for then what is?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424999 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:01


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QUOTE (Wheels @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 23:27) *
So please is there a criteria that needs to be met for a late appeal to be accepted, before I get the chance to outline the appeal, because I should get it in pronto and don't know what points I should include?

There will be guidance but since it’s the weekend and I’ve not brought my copy of Wilkinsons home nor committed it to memory you will have to wait. What I can say is that being able to make the appeal but choosing not to do so isn’t a great start.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424994 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,756

southpaw82
Posted on: Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 21:22


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QUOTE (seank @ Sat, 13 Oct 2018 - 22:12) *
Poster Dave B.
Newbie. No previous posts.

I have received an NIP from my vehicle loan company. I apparently exceeded the speed limit. There is photographic evidence, they say.
I am not the registered keeper.
I asked for photos to identify the driver, and they clearly show that it's me. I know it was me, actually. I like speed and have been prosecuted before and have another NIP for speeding in the same vehicle, to be heard later.
What should I do, please?

How would people here reply? Would Mr. Dave get a Fightback response or a roll-over response?

Fightback, my arse.

What would you tell him to do?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424977 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 22:55


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QUOTE (Tank Engine @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:48) *
SP, who has (had?) a first-class noddle - Rather than snipe, just ftsoa hypothesise I'm more right, on this issue, than wrong. What's the fix, then?

I don’t mind hypothesising - in fact one occurred to me: even if you’re correct, what of it? You tell me what the fix is.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424754 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 21:31


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 20:47) *
QUOTE (Tank Engine @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 18:55) *
………... - that this has become a "Give In" forum, not a fight-back one - and pursue such distractions and trivia?

Carry on, if you must...


I must be a servile stooge, simply because I don't see that either the council or the PPC forums advocate giving in very often.
Dislike the speeding side if you will but sometimes the best service that can be given is to layout the options and repercussions of fighting back.
I am with SP regarding one thing that any regular poster should be aware of, it is not our money, licence or points at risk.
Poor advice can put someone else's at risk, even cast iron defences can be lost should the OP fail to understand a point or treat it like a silver bullet.

Thank you, my servile obsequious stooge.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424727 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 12:03


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I must have more than one person in mind!
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424514 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:30


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QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 11:03) *
It's not for me to take it up with anyone.

As long as you're happy with the results, who am I to comment?

I’m confused. You say it’s not for you to take it up with anyone, including me, yet you’re happy to pass comment in a public thread? There’s not much I can do about the issue you clearly have unless you tell me about it - I’m not about to guess who you have in mind.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424490 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:27


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QUOTE (Wheels @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 10:53) *
I thought that given the difficulties the judge/magistrate would have used their justice powers to decide it was not in the public interest or purse and dismiss the case and this would have been a reasonable adjustment in the circumstances? My naivety clearly.

I am appointed to deal with her affairs with dwp, council tax, HMRC etc and her money gets paid straight to me to manage as she doesn't deal with things well, can't budget and has spontaneous spending behaviour as part of her Bipolar condition, which has racked up debt in the past, especially when she's in a manic phase.

It’s not within the court’s powers to dismiss the case because it feels that would be in the public interest. I’m still not clear on your appointment - is it as mental health act receiver or similar? Unless it is a formal arrangement you need to be careful attending court for her, particularly if she is not with you. You have no right to represent her, it seems, so court will hear you as a matter of discretion, not right.

It would also be useful, by introducing more clarity, if you could refrain from using “we” when it ought to be “she” or “my daughter”. It may seem picky but she is the one being sent notices and accused of an offence and it helps to understand the circumstances if that is accurately portrayed.

It seems there are two offences in play here, is that correct?

1. An offence of failure to furnish for which she has been convicted and sentenced.
2. An offence of speeding and failure to furnish for which a summons (or similar) has been received?

The first offence

The only options here realistically are to accept the verdict or appeal to the Crown Court. Unless she entered a guilty plea she can appeal against both conviction and sentence. She has 21 days from sentence to do this. An appeal will result in a rehearing of the case in the Crown Court, where her defence can be put again. At the moment it’s not possible to advise on prospects of success, as we don’t have enough information. She is at risk of further costs if she loses. Representations can be made about sentence again if she also appeals against sentence.

The second offence

Presumably the s 172 notice was addressed to your daughter but it sounds like you completed and returned it. What are the prosecution alleging? That the notice was not returned at all or that it was returned but was not properly completed? If your daughter wants to defend this allegation then it’s important to know what is alleged and what evidence there is to counter that.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424487 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,756

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:49


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QUOTE (Tank Engine @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 02:15) *
The chaps in charge here now work for the dark side.

If you had a point you do it no favours by writing drivel like that.

QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 08:13) *
I think most people are very pleased with the output. Just a pity the mega-poster won't think before he types.

Clearly this is about one person in your view then. Have you taken it up with them or with Fredd or I?
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424471 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 09:45


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The Equalities Act doesn’t apply to the court exercising a judicial function, such as sentencing.

What do you mean by your “appointeeship”?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424467 · Replies: 38 · Views: 1,756

southpaw82
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:31


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QUOTE (gas man @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 20:15) *
Have you been disadvantaged by the locus?


Im not sure because it is a very long road but it is an average speed set. Painted grey......

Well, do you know where the offence took place? Are you unable to mount a defence for any reason?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424334 · Replies: 12 · Views: 361

southpaw82
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 19:06


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QUOTE (seank @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:54) *
I don't believe you when you say that you don't care how people value your advice.

In the context of the tenor and changing it (or not). I do care that it’s right!
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424322 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 15:27


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I see this thread had been merged - I thought we’d covered this ground before.

For my own part, I’m not aware of the tenor of my advice changing significantly over the decade or so that I’ve been posting here. My advice generally is quite conservative, for several reasons. Two that loom quite large are (a) what I might be able to pull off for a proper client I can spend time with and deal with face to face and then represent in court is quite different to what I can do at arms length online for a litigant in person and (b) it’s not my money/licence/liberty on the line. The latter point is one that is quite often forgotten, in my opinion.

Being frank yet without wishing to be offensive, I don’t really care what people in general think about my advice. It is given in good faith and to the best of my knowledge based on the circumstances known at the time. Subject to the caveat given in the paragraph above it is very similar to the way I give advice in actual practice - which has served me and my clients well and I don’t intent to change drastically.

One point I will make though is that “you have a poor/low/little chance” does not equate to “you have no chance”. I have often advised clients they have poor chances but if they wish to push on I will do so - and sometimes they win, perhaps through my skill, luck, or something else. It makes little sense to say “you told me I had a poor case but I won, neener neener neener” - because poor does not equal none. Equally (and this is perhaps now two points) advice is generally given on the basis of the legal merits of a case. If it is subsequently dropped because of a mistake by the prosecution or an exercise of discretion then that has no relation to the legal merits so again it would be wrong to use such a case as an example of the advice being wrong.

I too have noticed a general trend of giving negative advice that appears to be based on reflex or rote rather than a consideration of the circumstances of the particular case. This is probably related to the quite stark reduction in cases seen in the speeding forum (I recall it being well over a page of new posts per day - now perhaps 1/3 of a page). This may be symptomatic of cases being generally harder to win on what used to be “loopholes” as a result of procedures being tightened up and the law being changed or interpreted differently. The CrimPR will have had an impact on this. That is not to say that all negative advice is wrong and anyone wanting a “fight it at all costs” approach will get short shrift from me unless they are the accused - in which case I will advise them accordingly. Ill thought out advice based on rote or reflex can be legitimately challenged if it is objectively wrong.

QUOTE (seank @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 16:16) *
the 40,000 posts of drivel given by a few people who just enjoy posting because they have nothing much else in life.

I just think that posting quantity is currently inversely proportional to posting quality, as you identify Tank Engine.

As a postscript (you posted as I was replying) I think you need to be careful with sweeping generalisations. I have no idea who you have in mind when you say what you say but I’d imagine a lot of people with a high post count do have other things to do but choose to give of their time freely to (at least try to) help others. That’s not to be lightly disregarded.

I agree with you that quantity is not necessarily an indicator of quality, though I’d not agree they were inversely proportional. I don’t foresee any sort of coup d’etat happening here - I’m not going to go away and I very much doubt many of the other high post count posters are either. If that’s a problem for some people then that’s a cross they’ll have to bear I’m afraid.
  Forum: The Flame Pit · Post Preview: #1424252 · Replies: 78 · Views: 2,418

southpaw82
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 15:06


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QUOTE (DavyBoi @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 15:02) *
2) The offence is 35 in a 30. Should I be asking for calibration certificate etc given this is right on the borderline of what they typically charge you for?

Let’s take the best case scenario and the device was out of calibration. What’s going to happen then? Well, the police may drop the case. However, if they continue there is still a presumption in law that a mechanical device is working properly and you would have to produce evidence that it would not. The absence of a calibration certificate is not evidence that it was not working properly. There is also case law to say that the prosecution does not have to prove that a device has been tested for accuracy - Clarke v CPS. What evidence do you have to show it was not working properly?
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424249 · Replies: 28 · Views: 1,302

southpaw82
Posted on: Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 10:37


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QUOTE (Logician @ Thu, 11 Oct 2018 - 00:05) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:34) *
QUOTE (Irksome @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 14:54) *
No, they wouldn't ride like a complete tool ... having taken several 'ridesafe' courses (1 on 1 or 2 on 1 courses with a Police motorcyclist on the road), one is encouraged to 'make progress' and where sensible that may include exceeding the posted limit (Having a fully liveried motorcycle up your chuff as you pass 90 encouraging you to go a little faster is an odd experience!)
Pretty poor training by them then, since no exemption applies.


Arguably the vehicle is being used for a police purpose in training the rider?

I very much doubt it. Equally, the impression given was that this behaviour was to be continued, at which point there would be absolutely no question of there being a police purpose.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1424138 · Replies: 40 · Views: 2,668

southpaw82
Posted on: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 19:03


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QUOTE (LJM1995 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 20:01) *
Thanks everyone , I have however just noticed the officer has misspelt the road I was parked on.

The ticket is spelt Glyndaw Road , however there is no such street. The correct spelling is is Glyndwr Road. Does this change things ?

No.
  Forum: Speeding and other Criminal Offences · Post Preview: #1423989 · Replies: 7 · Views: 345

southpaw82
Posted on: Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:25


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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 18:22) *
QUOTE (southpaw82 @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 17:39) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Wed, 10 Oct 2018 - 10:38) *
policing the ATA's IS the DVLA's remit

Where does it say that?

They audit them, they give them the ATA status, so they should be policing them as well. Certainly no other body is involved.

Right. I just wasn’t sure whether it was your opinion or something else.
  Forum: News / Press Articles · Post Preview: #1423934 · Replies: 16 · Views: 433

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