PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Polution has it really got worse
Korting
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 07:08
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,570
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



I live in a London Suburb and as some of you know the ULEZ will be coming into force next year in Central London and 2021 in Inner London. All diesels older than 2015 (Euro 6 engines) and Petrols oldr than 2005 will be subjected to a surcharge at first and then banned altogether.

Which made me think, Has the air got more polluted in the say 25 years and if so why?

In those 25 years the engines especially diesels have been designed to be much much cleaner than their predecessors, so what exactly is causing this extra pollution?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
 
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 14)
Advertisement
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 07:08
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
Fredd
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 08:00
Post #2


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 8,205
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



If you're interested enough, here's all the data you could want. smile.gif

I think the short answer is that the nature of the pollution has changed; coal use has swindled to almost nothing and fuel efficiency has increased so sulphur dioxide, large particulates and hydrocarbons are way down, meanwhile vehicle usage and congestion have worsened and diesel use increased so NOx and small particulates are way up. Gone are the days when a day in central London left you with obvious black snot by the evening; it's far more insidious now.


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 18:15
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



The big problem around here is that during peak hours there is so much congestion you just have loads of cars idling and on a pushbike obviously overtaking it is noticeably fouler air when you reach the queue.

Not helped by the councils obsession with traffic lights which means it is stop start all the time.

If there was less congestion the air quality would be better. But it must still be many times better than when leaded petrol was still knocking about (or not knocking as the case may be).
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Redivi
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 18:45
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,126
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Member No.: 96,238



About 15 years ago I had to give a lecture to an engineering group a couple of hundred yards from Hyde Park Corner

What struck me was how fresh the air in London was compared to breathing all the pollen and pesticides in rural Northamptonshire
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Korting
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 22:26
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,570
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



About a year ago I went up to the peak district and was told the air was mo9re polluted than in London because of all the lorries going to the various cement works.

Personally I reckon that Sadiq Khans extension of the ULEZ in "inner London" has more to do with revenue raising than cutting pollution.

The sad thing is that the poorer people who cant afford newer cars will be the brunt of it all.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Fredd
post Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 22:30
Post #6


Webmaster
Group Icon

Group: Root Admin
Posts: 8,205
Joined: 30 Mar 2003
From: Wokingham, UK
Member No.: 2



QUOTE (Korting @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 23:26) *
Personally I reckon that Sadiq Khans extension of the ULEZ in "inner London" has more to do with revenue raising than cutting pollution.

Personally I reckon that most of Sadiq Khan's transport policies are aimed at eliminating private motoring and moving to the utopia of universal public transport. AKA the wet dream of the transport unions.

Whether those policies will survive impact with reality, any more than reducing stop & search has when confronted with rising knife crime, is a different matter.


--------------------
Regards,
Fredd

__________________________________________________________________________
Pepipoo relies on you
to keep this site running!
Donate to Pepipoo now using your
Visa, Mastercard, debit card or PayPal account
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Korting
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 06:02
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,570
Joined: 13 May 2010
Member No.: 37,524



What I would like to do is to organise a car strike, in which ALL motorists ditch their cars for 1 week and go about their business on public transport. That should also include those people who work for London underground and bus companies, and see how London copes Trouble is it would damage this governments economy and as a Tory, I wouldn't want to see that
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 07:05
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,200
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



And if we go carless the train drivers unions, the bus driver unions and the underground drivers unions will have an even greater ability to hold the rest of us to ransom.....


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 13:00
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Even if it was possible obviously it would prove anything. Noone is expecting or forecasting every driver to switch to PT overnight.

It would be a gradual process which would have a gradual increase in supply. If it did happen ironically it would be good for the remaining motorists because they could never increase rail capacity quickly so more roads would be built initially, and they would need to be quick grade separated routes.

It's the ironic thing here, people have got angry because they've put a special back route in for cyclists and put cycle parking on staff parking areas where i work (people unhappy because they are the closest spaces to the building). But the cycle parking is always full, and logically if everyone on a bike drove there would be much less space, and much longer queues to get onto site in the morning.

Can't please everyone.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Unzippy
post Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 02:01
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,006
Joined: 29 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,323



QUOTE (Korting @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 08:08) *
In those 25 years the engines especially diesels have been designed to be much much cleaner than their predecessors



This is true, but only when being used for a long enough time that they get up to temp and all the extra cleaning tech can work. A ten minute journey in a modern diesel isn't good for emissions.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 07:54
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,200
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



QUOTE (Unzippy @ Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 03:01) *
QUOTE (Korting @ Thu, 26 Apr 2018 - 08:08) *
In those 25 years the engines especially diesels have been designed to be much much cleaner than their predecessors



This is true, but only when being used for a long enough time that they get up to temp and all the extra cleaning tech can work. A ten minute journey in a modern diesel isn't good for emissions.

The emissions test is only 20 minutes......

For a long time we have been driving diesels more and more, they produce more NOx generally than petrol but massively more particulates, the first control of particulates was on mass, the trouble is that to reduce the mass meant more smaller ones (the ones that actually do most harm) were produced, so the first iterations of cleaner Diesel were no better and arguably worse for us than the oreceeeding ones!


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Unzippy
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 04:31
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,006
Joined: 29 Oct 2013
Member No.: 66,323



QUOTE (The Rookie @ Sun, 29 Apr 2018 - 08:54) *
The emissions test is only 20 minutes......


From a cold start or with a hot engine?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
notmeatloaf
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 10:15
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3,306
Joined: 4 Mar 2017
Member No.: 90,659



Cold start with the engine between 20C and 30C. The four urban driving cycles, and one extra-urban.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
The Rookie
post Mon, 30 Apr 2018 - 16:17
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 56,200
Joined: 9 Sep 2003
From: Warwickshire
Member No.: 317



As an indication, for a petrol engine car to pass the test the catalyst has to be at operating temperature (conversion efficiencies for the 3 regulated pollutants greater than 90%) within 40seconds, any later and you have failed the test. On my last project we were getting that 90% within about 25 seconds.

I’ve not worked on Diesel emissions enough to know the equivalent.


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DastardlyDick
post Sat, 19 May 2018 - 12:13
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,860
Joined: 12 May 2012
Member No.: 54,871



QUOTE (Korting @ Fri, 27 Apr 2018 - 07:02) *
What I would like to do is to organise a car strike, in which ALL motorists ditch their cars for 1 week and go about their business on public transport. That should also include those people who work for London underground and bus companies, and see how London copes Trouble is it would damage this governments economy and as a Tory, I wouldn't want to see that


Quick answer is that London wouldn't cope - there's not enough buses etc to replace the cars.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 12:04
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here