PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Multiple PCN Brighton and Hove City Council.
bmw1981
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 09:54
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



Hi there chaps and chapettes,

Great forum here and I hope someone can shed some light here.

I parked on Friday up on the pavement behind double yellow lines, I thought I was doing the right thing as 50 metres up the road people were doing similar but to my dismay when I got back I realised that 50m up the road there were a) no yellow lines and b) no parking restrictions.

What I have received from the CEO's on two occasions is Contravention Code 01

One on the 04/11/17 at 21:45 attached

second on 05/11/17 at 07:38 attached

very unsocialble hours mind you I didnt think CEO's worked at these hours.

I assume the first ticket stands however I dont see why I should pay for the same offence twice! Or if this is even legal, because the car was left there over Friday night Saturday morning and was not moved so how can they justify two tickets for one offence withing 24hours.

Looking to challenge asap (if people on here think appropriate) so any advice is very kindly welcomed and appreciated.

BMW1981

Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Start new topic
Replies (1 - 19)
Advertisement
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 09:54
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
DancingDad
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:10
Post #2


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



From what you say, bang to rights on the first.
But also trying to penalise you twice for the same offence which as the restriction is continuous and the vehicle was not moved, is not correct.
Council will likely reject as they seem to believe that there is a witching hour at midnight that resets 24/7 restrictions.

See what others say but I would suggest paying the first at discount and challenging the second on that this is a double penalty.
Ensure you state that you have paid the first (and give number), that the vehicle was not moved and that this is a double penalty for the same contravention.
Include that if they believe different that they can always cancel under their discretion and if they reject, to include the legislation under which they are justifying a second penalty.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:14
Post #3


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



Double yellows apply 24x7 so yours is a continuous contravention therefore only a single PCN is justified. They could have just towed you away, of course on the 2nd day, so you're lucky.

I would pay the discount on the first PCN, and appeal the 2nd on continuous contravention. Councils don't like giving up PCN penalty income, especially Brighton who are notoriously venal and anti-motoring in general. So to get a result as others have, you have to forego the discount and stand your ground. This means waiting for the Notice to Owner at which point you appeal it again on the same basis, and then, if refused, to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It can take weeks for this process to run its course, plenty of time to save up the additional cost if you get a grumpy adjudicator.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:14
Post #4


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



thanks Dancing Dad this is helpful!

Thanks for the great advice

Much appreciated, will wait to see if there is any further input.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:46
Post #5


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (DancingDad @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:10) *
From what you say, bang to rights on the first.
But also trying to penalise you twice for the same offence which as the restriction is continuous and the vehicle was not moved, is not correct.
Council will likely reject as they seem to believe that there is a witching hour at midnight that resets 24/7 restrictions.

See what others say but I would suggest paying the first at discount and challenging the second on that this is a double penalty.
Ensure you state that you have paid the first (and give number), that the vehicle was not moved and that this is a double penalty for the same contravention.
Include that if they believe different that they can always cancel under their discretion and if they reject, to include the legislation under which they are justifying a second penalty.



+1 they cannot punish twice for the same offence


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
hcandersen
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 11:22
Post #6


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 35,063
Joined: 2 Aug 2008
From: Woking
Member No.: 21,551



'...justifying a second penalty' to which I would add 'particularly given that this was given less than 10 hours after the first PCN.'
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 11:51
Post #7


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:14) *
Double yellows apply 24x7 so yours is a continuous contravention therefore only a single PCN is justified. They could have just towed you away, of course on the 2nd day, so you're lucky.

I would pay the discount on the first PCN, and appeal the 2nd on continuous contravention. Councils don't like giving up PCN penalty income, especially Brighton who are notoriously venal and anti-motoring in general. So to get a result as others have, you have to forego the discount and stand your ground. This means waiting for the Notice to Owner at which point you appeal it again on the same basis, and then, if refused, to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal. It can take weeks for this process to run its course, plenty of time to save up the additional cost if you get a grumpy adjudicator.



Yes I know I was lucky that I didn't get towed so thankful on that side of things.

Do you really reckon will go that far? And what happens if I loose due to a grumpy adjudicator as you put it.

Kind ~Regards

BMW1981
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 11:59
Post #8


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (bmw1981 @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 11:51) *
........Do you really reckon will go that far? And what happens if I loose due to a grumpy adjudicator as you put it.

Kind ~Regards

BMW1981


We can never know what the council will do.
A guess based on B&H being notorious for rejections is that this will go to adjudication.

Worst case if it does and you lose is that it will cost you the full PCN amount, £70.
No more then that unless you miss deadlines.
Traffic Penalty Tribunal so can take advantage of a telephone hearing if you do not want a face to face and the time off work.
Grumpy adjudicator... they don't exist, honest smile.gif
We can't give guarantees but TPT do not get as stressed as London lot so usually measured.
And sympathetic where they believe a PCN is not justified, which the second isn't.
That you paid the first with no argument will be in your favour.

Personally I'd take this all the way if needed with no hesitation.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Incandescent
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 12:00
Post #9


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 20,915
Joined: 22 Apr 2012
Member No.: 54,455



If you lose at adjudication you pay the full PCN penalty, but no more. Basically you'd be going for a double-or-quits bet, with the odds heavily in your favour.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 12:26
Post #10


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



One case on continuous contravention that illustrates our point of view.
London Tribunal case, the number can be found in their case register.
QUOTE
Continuous contravention
2160141081

"The Appellant said that her vehicle was on the pavement for several days and had apparently received several penalty charge notices. She has not stated whether the vehicle had been moved in between these dates. The Authority had not said otherwise.

The Appellant's submissions about not knowing that one cannot park on the pavement in London is wholly untenable. At the appeal stage, Her focus is that she should only be penalised once.

The Authority said that it can issue a ticket every 24 hours. It has not offered any authority for this proposition. There is some authority to support this approach but even these authority restrict this to restrictions which do not run overnight. It does not therefore apply to the present case anyway.

The starting point is that one wrong doing should only be penalised once. The Authority has not offered anything which goes against this point.

I allow the appeal. I take it that the Appellant will not complain if her car is removed should this recur. She will find that the removal charges cost more than three PCNs."

Mr Chan exhibiting a sense of humour in his closing remark.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 14:37
Post #11


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



Hi chaps,

I am going to pay the first pcn and appeal the second one,

does anyone have a template letter I can use to appeal the second PCN, on the basis of multiple pcn for continuous contravention.

Thanks again
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Mon, 13 Nov 2017 - 14:55
Post #12


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



Dear Brighton & Hove City Council,

I would like to appeal my PCN REF: BH68107361- 05/11/2017- 07:38, based on the fact that I have been penalised you twice for the same offence. I received a previous PCN for the same contravention BH6808497- 04/11/17 21:45

BH6808497 has already been paid within the 14day discount period, my vehicle was not moved and therefore I have received a double penalty for the same contravention.

Please specify the legislation under which you are justifying a second penalty, to which I would add, particularly given that the second penalty was given less than 10 hours after the first PCN.

I would like to quote London tribunal case: Continuous contravention 2160141081:

“The starting point is that one wrong doing should only be penalised once. The Authority has not offered anything which goes against this point.”
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 11:30
Post #13


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



Had a response back to my letter:

Basically they are saying my appeal has no substance

"A PCN can be issued each calendar day that the vehicle is parked in contravention of the regulations. Both PCNs are valid. I note your comments regarding a London tribunal decision, but London is governed by different parking regulations to Brighton."

Please see redacted letter attached, any help much appreciated.

Best wishes

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 12:00) *
If you lose at adjudication you pay the full PCN penalty, but no more. Basically you'd be going for a double-or-quits bet, with the odds heavily in your favour.


Hi Incandescent,

it seems they are very 'generously' offering for me to pay at the discounted rate if I pay within 14days! whats going on here?

Best Wishes

QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 12:00) *
If you lose at adjudication you pay the full PCN penalty, but no more. Basically you'd be going for a double-or-quits bet, with the odds heavily in your favour.


My apologies,

disregard my last post I understand what you were saying now.

Regards
Attached File(s)
Attached File  pcn_brighton_Redacted.pdf ( 317.68K ) Number of downloads: 149
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 11:37
Post #14


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,308
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE
it seems they are very 'generously' offering for me to pay at the discounted rate if I pay within 14days! whats going on here?


They want your money ( and probably think they are shaky ground if you go to tribunal ).

DD's post #8 says it all.

But in the end it's your choice.

As M Chan put it
QUOTE
The Authority said that it can issue a ticket every 24 hours. It has not offered any authority for this proposition. There is some authority to support this approach but even these authority restrict this to restrictions which do not run overnight. It does not therefore apply to the present case anyway.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 13:01
Post #15


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



London are governed by exactly the same parking regulations as Brighton.

The common law of the UK and the ECHR article 6 both prohibit punishment more than once for one offence arising from the same set of facts. Fact. You parked only once so only on contravention



--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 14:23
Post #16


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 30 Nov 2017 - 13:01) *
London are governed by exactly the same parking regulations as Brighton.

The common law of the UK and the ECHR article 6 both prohibit punishment more than once for one offence arising from the same set of facts. Fact. You parked only once so only on contravention



Thanks for this! biggrin.gif
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:25
Post #17


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



Hi All,

have received my notice to Owner (RTO) in the post...

whats the next stage or how should I go about appealing, does anyone have a template?

Best wishes

please see attachment
Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:07
Post #18


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (bmw1981 @ Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 12:25) *
Hi All,

have received my notice to Owner (RTO) in the post...

whats the next stage or how should I go about appealing, does anyone have a template?

Best wishes

please see attachment


The important thing is to make sure it is put across to the tribunal that this is a continuous contravention


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
bmw1981
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:14
Post #19


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 37
Joined: 6 Nov 2017
Member No.: 94,942



QUOTE (Incandescent @ Mon, 6 Nov 2017 - 10:14) *
Double yellows apply 24x7 so yours is a continuous contravention therefore only a single PCN is justified. They could have just towed you away, of course on the 2nd day, so you're lucky.


Yes continuous contravention, I didnt mention it in my first appeal, however the point came across I feel.

Thanks
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Chaseman
post Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:31
Post #20


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,577
Joined: 16 Aug 2010
From: People's Republic of Lambeth
Member No.: 39,819



This is the PATAS case you want on continuous contravention:


QUOTE
Case Details


Case reference
2110189461

Appellant
James George Gibson

Authority
London Borough of Haringey

VRM
P844KKU




PCN Details


PCN
HY64567480

Contravention date
06 Jan 2011

Contravention time
09:12:00

Contravention location
Lausanne Road

Penalty amount
GBP 80.00

Contravention
In resident shared use place with invalid perm


Decision date
18 May 2011

Adjudicator
Carl Teper

Appeal decision
Appeal allowed

Direction
cancel the Penalty Charge Notice and the Notice to Owner.

Reasons
The authority's case is that the Appellant's vehicle was parked in a residents' parking place or zone displaying an invalid permit when in Lausanne Road on 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 15, 18, 19 and 21 January 2011 at 09.00. The Appellant's case is that the permit had not been renewed because they had not received a renewal notice from the authority. The Appellant and his wife were on holiday from 31 December 2010 until 23 January 2011 during which period the Penalty Charge Notices were incurred. I have considered the evidence and I find that the Appellant's vehicle was parked in a residents parking place displaying an invalid permit when in Lausanne Road on 4 January 2011. It is the Appellant's responsibility to renew their permit and they are not entitled to rely on the courtesy renewal letter, which may not have been received. However, I find that the Appellant's vehicle committed one contravention of parking in a residents' permit bay without clearly displaying a valid permit when in Lausanne Road on 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12, 13, 15, 18, 19 and 21 January 2011. I find that one continuous contravention has occurred; the vehicle remains at the same location throughout the period these Penalty Charge Notices were issued. Further, I have taken into account that the residents' bay is operational from 8am to 6.30pm Monday to Saturday and I find that the situation would be the same if the residents' bay was operational 24 hours a day 7 days a week. There is no rule of law or regulation that entitles an authority to issue a penalty charge notice every 24 hours or as in some of these Penalty Charge Notices less than 24 hours. An enforcement authority has other powers at its disposal for a continuous contravention, such as removal. For the reasons given this appeal is allowed.


Note that the adj makes clear that it matters not whether the parking restriction is continuous (e.g. a DYL) or only for specified periods - if the car has not moved, only one offence is committed. But most LAs believe (because it raises more money for them) that a new offence is committed every 24 hours, despite there being no authority for this view.

This post has been edited by Chaseman: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 - 13:33


--------------------
Chaseman
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 19:14
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here