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APCOA - Parking Debt Passed To Lease Company
BlueSkyBlue
post Fri, 15 May 2020 - 13:03
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Hi, I'm after some advice please. I've used this forum's knowledge to my benefit previously.

I have a lease car thorough 'Leaseplan'

On 7th May 2020 Leaseplan notified me that they had received a letter from Debt Recovery plus regarding an outstanding PCN from St David's Railway Station Car Park. The car park is controlled by APCOA.

The letter from Debt Recovery was dated 27/03/2020 and the offence date was 01/11/2019. The amount requested is £170 although LP have offered to pay £110 towards it.

I have contacted LP and obtained permission to speak to Debt Recovery.

The car was parked there a that time & a parking ticket was purchased using cash. Obviously given the timescales there is no record or ticket for this.

The car park is one where you enter the vehicle details so there may have been a typo.

My plan is to contact Debt Recovery, make no admissions about the driver & state that parking was paid for ( there may have been a typo entering the vehicle details)

Is there anything that I should or should not be doing a this stage?

Thanks very much
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BlueSkyBlue
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 16:25
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Other than the invoice with the copy of the Debt Recovery Service document sent to Leaseplan, then an invoice created & forwarded to me. I have received nothing else from either Leaseplan, DRS or APOCA. Leaseplan have been very slow throughout.

I have reversed the direct debit request from them.

I have just received an email from Leaseplan (it took over 14 days for them to reply)as below:

Please note : As LeasePlan are the registered owners of the vehicle, all fines will automatically come to us.
For the majority of PCN’s received, LeasePlan will transfer liability of the fine to the customer and send this back to the issuing authority for them to pursue with the driver personally. For all our customers, our preference would be to transfer liability for these fines, however there are some companies who do not allow us to do so, and as we are the registered keepers of the vehicle, we are obligated to pay for the fines and recharge the customer. In result of this, invoice number #518 was raised and sent to you.
The fine in question will need to be disputed directly with the issuing body providing evidence as to why the fine is not due. If your dispute is up held, LeasePlan will receive a refund on the fine paid and this will be passed back to yourself, minus the administration fee which has been issued accordingly to your contractual agreement terms and conditions.

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hcandersen
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 19:12
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You started with
I have contacted LP and obtained permission to speak to Debt Recovery.


And now we have:

Other than the invoice with the copy of the Debt Recovery Service document sent to Leaseplan, then an invoice created & forwarded to me. I have received nothing else from either Leaseplan, DRS or APOCA. Leaseplan have been very slow throughout.


Oh really. And why should anyone write to or contact you?

Then:

For all our customers, our preference would be to transfer liability for these fines, however there are some companies who do not allow us to do so, and as we are the registered keepers of the vehicle, we are obligated to pay for the fines and recharge the customer. In result of this, invoice number #518 was raised and sent to you.


Then:

The fine in question will need to be disputed directly with the issuing body providing evidence as to why the fine is not due. If your dispute is up held, LeasePlan will receive a refund on the fine paid and this will be passed back to yourself, minus the administration fee which has been issued accordingly to your contractual agreement terms and conditions.

Then:
I have reversed the direct debit request from them

Oh really. On what legal basis? And if you want to lose whatever goodwill that remains between you and LP then keep on reversing lawful DDs.

And if, as it appears, the parking charge has been paid, then IMO, your chance of getting the issue reopened are the square root of foxtrot alpha.

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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 20:05
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QUOTE
For goodness sake, can we forget about b****y railway regs, who's who between APCOA and GWR etc, because none of this is relevant if Leaseplan pay and then charge you.


The question as to whether or not Byelaws are being used to manage the car park is very relevant. See http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=132279 for example.

The lease contract may contain words to the effect that all charges for breaches of parking laws will be paid by the lessor and will be recharged to the lessee. The lessee would then have a contractual obligation to reimburse the lessor. The point here is that a breach of railway Byelaws can only be proven by a Magistrate's Court. Without the case having been proven by such a court, there would be no breach of Byelaws, ergo the lessee would have no contractual obligation to reimburse the lessor.
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hcandersen
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 20:54
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Another theoretical answer, the practical implication of which is?

Firstly, a lease contract may contain words to the effect that all charges for breaches of parking laws will be paid by the lessor and will be recharged to the lessee. The lessee would then have a contractual obligation to reimburse the lessor. The point here is that a breach of railway Byelaws can only be proven by a Magistrate's Court.


Who cares? Anyway, 'may contain' is hardly a solid basis for any advice IMO.

If Leaseplan have accepted that it is a legitimate claim and have paid, what's left for the lessee? To sue Leaseplan? Or, as they say here, to reverse a DD - frankly, they're on very dodgy ground with this.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 25 May 2020 - 20:55
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Gary Bloke
post Mon, 25 May 2020 - 22:42
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QUOTE
Another theoretical answer, the practical implication of which is?

Firstly, a lease contract may contain words to the effect that all charges for breaches of parking laws will be paid by the lessor and will be recharged to the lessee. The lessee would then have a contractual obligation to reimburse the lessor. The point here is that a breach of railway Byelaws can only be proven by a Magistrate's Court.


Who cares? Anyway, 'may contain' is hardly a solid basis for any advice IMO.

If Leaseplan have accepted that it is a legitimate claim and have paid, what's left for the lessee? To sue Leaseplan? Or, as they say here, to reverse a DD - frankly, they're on very dodgy ground with this.


The OP has not provided the wording of their lease contract so it is not possible to be certain at this stage of exactly what it says.
The practical implication is clear: If the parking was being managed via railway Byelaws then there is a chance, depending on the wording of the lease contract, that the OP has no contractual obligation to reimburse the lessor.
Not sure I can be any clearer.
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hcandersen
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 06:23
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This is not a parking issue, despite the OP's first post.

It is, as has now been crystallised, that pursuant to a lease contract the lessor has charged (recharged) the lessee for a financial loss.

The OP first posted:

The car park is one where you enter the vehicle details so there may have been a typo.

Which in plain English means the probability is that a breach occurred and anyway the events occurred so long ago, Nov. 2019. In addition, the OP doesn't even say they have any first-hand recollection because they intended to write something along the lines that they do not admit to being the driver.

We have not seen the lease agreement or even any correspondence from the lease company - the OP posts selective extracts.

I am seriously concerned that the OP is ploughing a very dangerous furrow which could lead to their lease being terminated and possible additional charges from the lessee for cancelling a payment and PoFA isn't going to help them with this, IMO.
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 09:19
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*possibly* pusuant to a lease contract
We dont know the T&C and we dont know exactly *what* the OPs vehicle was issued with - penalty or parking - to know IF leaseplan has the right to charge the OP.

OP you need to find out:
- EXACTLY what this charge actually *is*. Leaseplan may have a copy of this on their system. ASK LEASEPLAN
- EXACTLY what your lease specifically allows LP to do when it comes to fines ,invoices and offers to avoid prosecution by paying APCOA a bribe.
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Gary Bloke
post Tue, 26 May 2020 - 10:15
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QUOTE
Which in plain English means the probability is that a breach occurred

Only a Magistrate can determine whether or not a Byelaw breach has occurred. Eight hundred years of English criminal law assumes that the defendant is innocent until proven guilty. So no court case means no guilt. Byelaws parking "penalty" tickets are merely offers to avoid prosecution. Chances are, these "penalties" are not covered by the lease contract.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Tue, 26 May 2020 - 10:18
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hcandersen
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 13:32
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Which is not relevant - in any event, my reference to the OP's statement was that in their minds they are pretty certain that this error occurred.

The charge has been paid.

Who's going to Magistrates' Court? No one.

So OP, you have to decide what to do from the range of actual possibilities in the circumstances of this case.

But bereft of knowledge of the circumstances of this case ....

But if the OP has a legitimate claim against LP then they should not resort to self-help measures (cancelling DD) but deal with LP professionally. The problem is that the charge has been paid; LP have apparently made their position clear i.e. if the OP can get the creditor to refund the charge to LP then they would cancel their demand on the OP, less admin. costs (which, if *2 might nearly approach the charge - a Pyrrhic victory); and LP aren't going intercede but have left it up to the OP.

Chances of success? wink.gif

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BlueSkyBlue
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 20:41
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Once again thanks for the advice.

I'm becoming hamstrung in relation to this. I have contacted APCOA and they have informed me that they will contact DRS on my behalf as I couldn't get response from them. This was nearly a week ago & I haven't heard anything from either.

Likewise I again spoke to LP. The reply I had to my initial email took two weeks. I have replied requesting all documentation in relation to this PCN & despite numerous phone calls I haven't had response. It would appear a majority of their customer service team are working remotely & do not have access to the requisite systems.

I understand that my decision to cancel the debit may have been rash, but the only notice I had was an email with an attached invoice (a copy of the DRS letter) with the title of 'Traffic Violation' but with no explanation some six months after the alleged offence. I responded to the email with a reply to open the dialogue, asked for an explanation, I was contesting the PCN/fine & what procedure had been taken. A reply to this took two weeks. by which time I had cancelled the debit. LP respond to the PCN by paying it & then charge the customer plus fees. If I am able to challenge & I am successful then I will obtain refund minus the fees. However what I thought what might be a straight forward procedure is proving rather difficult as the parties appear to be struggling to respond in a timely fashion and I am no further forward.

I'm conscious of posting on here with no real factual update & I'm in no better position than a week or so ago,although I have benefited from the advice given.
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ostell
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 21:18
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Let's get this straight, there was no "Traffic Violation" indeed no violation at all. Only an invoice for an alleged breach of a contract. Not a fine by any stretch of the imagination.
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Gary Bloke
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 21:30
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OP, you must have a copy of your lease contract. Look up where it covers the lessee's reimbursement of parking charges paid by the lessor. Post up the their exact wording, including their definition of the types of charges for which they expect you to reimburse them.

Or just post up whole lease contract if easier. Thanks.

Also, have you found out how the parking was being managed? Civil contract law or railway Byelaws?
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BlueSkyBlue
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 22:00
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QUOTE (Gary Bloke @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 22:30) *
OP, you must have a copy of your lease contract. Look up where it covers the lessee's reimbursement of parking charges paid by the lessor. Post up the their exact wording, including their definition of the types of charges for which they expect you to reimburse them.


Also, have you found out how the parking was being managed? Civil contract law or railway Byelaws?


Will do.

Online chat with APCOA:


Question : Is the Exeter St Davids car park governed by Railway Bye-laws?
[11:06] simon has joined the conversation
[11:07] simon: good afternoon yes this car park will be under their terms and conditions


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Gary Bloke
post Wed, 27 May 2020 - 22:19
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OK so assuming the car park is managed using railway Byelaws as APCOA have indicated in the chat message, then you have not violated any traffic regulation or parking law, because you have not been found guilty of any Byelaw breach in a Magistrate's Court.

IF the LP contract says something like "you must obey all traffic regulations and parking laws" - then you have done that. You are an innocent man / woman. Likely that you have no contractual obligation to reimburse them if the lease contract talks about "breaking the law". But it all depends on the exact wording of that contract.

This post has been edited by Gary Bloke: Wed, 27 May 2020 - 22:23
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hcandersen
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 06:27
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OP, thanks for your update, very measured.

I am still concerned with the wider issue of your continuing use of the car. You say you've cancelled your DD which presumably supports your use of the car. So forget about this dispute, what is likely to happen now? If they try and take your DD but fail they'll be on to you. The ramifications do not bear thinking about. You must not let this issue prejudice your continuing relationship with LP, it is not worth it, particularly as you posted:

The amount requested is £170 although LP have offered to pay £110 towards it.

If I wanted to look at your lease, I'd start with what happens if you cancel your DD. Frankly, let's get things in order and in proportion.
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The Rookie
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 07:36
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QUOTE (BlueSkyBlue @ Wed, 27 May 2020 - 23:00) *
Question : Is the Exeter St Davids car park governed by Railway Bye-laws?
[11:06] simon has joined the conversation
[11:07] simon: good afternoon yes this car park will be under their terms and conditions

Except a byelaw isn’t a term or condition, but this being APCOA it’s a dead cert for me that there are Byelaws and that the first notice will be called penalty. It will only magically turn into a contractual charge ‘after all’ once the 6 months had elapsed.


--------------------
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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 08:41
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The lessee can still pay for car without using a payment method that allows the lessor to also extract the parking charge.
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hcandersen
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 15:45
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????

Have you read their lease? If so, you're the only one who has. So I'm working on the assumption that you haven't.

Then let's not guess. This is about real circumstances of a case, not theory. A supplier is perfectly entitled to require a DD for payment and make this a contract condition. Unilateral cancellation would IMO likely leave the lessee open to additional charges from the lessor or automatic cancellation which, if deemed without notice and a contract breach in itself, would itself attract charges.

And for what?

The OP summed it up - I might have been a bit rash.

Indeed.

OP, don't blame LP for paying the charge.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Thu, 28 May 2020 - 15:46
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BlueSkyBlue
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 16:24
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There has been some misunderstanding.

I've cancelled the debit for the 'traffic violation' invoice not for the lease - apologies I should have made it clearer

My documents relating to the car are held on a portal by LP & at the moment I can't see a copy of the lease - I have messaged them to provide me with one.


I am still no further forward having received no communication from any of the parties involved.



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Gary Bloke
post Thu, 28 May 2020 - 16:48
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QUOTE
Then let's not guess. This is about real circumstances of a case, not theory. A supplier is perfectly entitled to require a DD for payment and make this a contract condition. Unilateral cancellation would IMO likely leave the lessee open to additional charges from the lessor or automatic cancellation which, if deemed without notice and a contract breach in itself, would itself attract charges.


Please - let's not guess.
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