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ES parking charge Spinningfields, stopped on Water St. and received a parking charge notice
mickx
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 09:22
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Hi
can someone help as exactly what i can do next
thnx
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post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 09:22
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Dave65
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 09:29
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Looking at the dates it is outside the 14 days required for claiming keeper liability.
Unless it is a leased vehicle, will you confirm?

This post has been edited by Dave65: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 09:30
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ostell
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 11:31
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If this is your vehicle then:

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You have also failed to give notice of keeper liability as required by 9 (2) (f) the same Act

You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc

First class post with free certificate of posting from a post office

This post has been edited by ostell: Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 11:34
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mickx
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 12:24
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Yes I can confirm thar it is my privately owned vehicle
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mickx
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 12:46
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Hi
do I include the date I received the charge notice, which was yesterday 22/10/22
thnx so much for your help and I will update on any further actions
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ostell
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 13:24
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No need to, their own documents show the failure. Sent 14 days after event then assumed 2 days for delivery, 9 (6).
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mickx
post Sat, 23 Oct 2021 - 13:27
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thnx on way to post office now
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mickx
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:30
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Hi people,
this is what I received this morning
regards
mick

This post has been edited by mickx: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:38
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DWMB2
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:35
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Nothing attached - you might need to use an external host like https://imgur.com/


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mickx
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:41
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just reposted
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Jlc
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:44
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They've ignored the point about lack of keeper liability.

However, they will pursue the keeper on the reasonable (?) basis they were driving.

If the keeper wasn't driving then they should provide 'evidence' to show this.

They are litigious so a court claim is quite possible.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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mickx
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:49
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what about the fact they ignored the 14 days to send reply
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Jlc
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 12:16
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QUOTE (mickx @ Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 11:49) *
what about the fact they ignored the 14 days to send reply

I've already answered it.

The 14 days only applies to keeper liability. They cannot hold the keeper liable - but as above, they'll still sue the keeper (but would have to show on the balance of probabilities they were driving).

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 12:16


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Sheffield Dave
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 12:16
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The 14 days isn't a get-out-out-jail-free card. It doesn't stop the driver being liable for any contractually-agreed charge; its just just means that if the PPC don't know the identity of the driver, they can't use the provisions of POFA 2012 to transfer liability to the keeper.

There's nothing stopping them from continuing to badger the keeper, or even to take the keeper to court - they will sat that they had the "reasonable belief" that the keeper was also the driver. It's then up to the judge to decide, on balance of probabilities, whether that is indeed the case. In that case the defendant, being the driver, is liable if the court also agrees that the driver incurred a charge.

This post has been edited by Sheffield Dave: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 12:17
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TMC Towcester
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 12:39
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Was the car actually parked? The image isn't great but it looks like a car turning a corner??
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DWMB2
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 12:47
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Can you get some photos of the signs? "No stopping at all" (the wording used on the PCN) suggests potentially forbidding signage, which would be another angle you could use at court if needed.


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mickx
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 13:22
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sign picture 1
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DWMB2
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 13:26
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That's too small to read - as suggested before use a third party site like https://imgur.com/ to upload

If you're using Google Street View then just send us a link (assuming the image quality on Google is good enough to read the text)


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mickx
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 13:28
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at the entrance of Water St. there is no reason to believe this is a privte street, also if you notice the sign you have to physically get out of the car to read it thereby automatically breaching the no stopping rules
regards
mick

If google street view can send a car along these streets then Google must think it is not a private street

This post has been edited by mickx: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 13:38
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DWMB2
post Thu, 4 Nov 2021 - 13:46
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Was the driver stopped on the left hand corner here: https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4803126,-2....6384!8i8192

If so, it would be helpful to get your own photo with all the text clearly legible. But in the meantime, three separate things here:
  • The signage is forbidding - it is not offering parking on certain terms, so no contract was offered/formed.
  • There'd be a fair argument to make that the signage was not sufficient to make clear that where the driver stopped was indeed private land.
  • Even if the signage was sufficient (which you would deny) and was capable of forming a contract (which you'll also deny), it would be impossible for a driver to read, consider, and choose to accept/refuse the terms without stopping their car. ES Parking cannot claim a contract was formed without providing a driver the opportunity to consider the terms of it.

QUOTE
If google street view can send a car along these streets then Google must think it is not a private street

It appears to be a private street. The fact that Google have sent a car down it does not alter this - private land can be open to the public.


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