Worthing PCN |
Worthing PCN |
Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:55
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#1
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 18 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,462 |
I'm after advice please. I'm disabled and have a blue badge. Last week I had a hospital appointment on the day that the heavens well and truly opened. My autistic son wouldn't let me leave the house and I did not have my carer with me to drop me off and park elsewhere so I was running late and in need of a space close to the entrance for safety as I'm on crutches and slip/fall in bad weather. I parked just in front of a restricted bay on double yellow lines, by a junction. I have been given a PCN which states I am parked in a restricted street during prescribed hours (01), observed from 11:38-11:44. I have written to contest it as I wasn't in the bay and had my blue badge correctly displaying my arrival time etc. and stating I'd had to park close due to safety reasons and also wait longer inside the hospital for the torrential downpour to reduce as it was even worse when I can out from my appointment.
After looking at the codes I presume I have been given a PCN for being too close to the junction, yet the restricted residential bay is less than 10m from the junction. Could I use that as my defence if they reject my initial appeal? Surely if these laws are there to restrict people parking so close to a junction why do the council then put a specific marked bay within that distance? Here's the PCN with pictures taken from PCN website (there's some odd ones that don't make a great deal of sense to me but they must have taken them for some strange reason) https://imgur.com/YCJGbre https://imgur.com/c5a6kLa https://imgur.com/mWn2UnA https://imgur.com/FRx7cZ8 https://imgur.com/JAZsVph https://imgur.com/cxnBxXC https://imgur.com/cJnCujj https://imgur.com/0hVt3WQ https://imgur.com/Cchq0rK https://imgur.com/Buxw5r1 https://imgur.com/TGxwcf5 https://imgur.com/4fvJlUr https://imgur.com/sfn3LRq Any advice would be much appreciated as I have no doubt I will be rejected. I'm hoping this will display the pics properly now. Going to have to post in another reply as too many to fit in one post. |
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Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 22:55
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Sat, 18 Aug 2018 - 23:20
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I can't work out why this PCN was issued, the blue badge appears to be correctly displayed and you're allowed to park on double yellows for up to three hours. There's a fatal flaw on the PCN which in any event makes it invalid.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 09:29
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Let's see what they reject with, if they do.
Photos show you on DYLs. The contravention refers to this, nothing else. The BB allows you to park on DYLs. It seems to be displayed along with time clock. It seems in date and no close up of the time clock so I assume that was set correctly. I also assume your BB and not your sons.... check if you inadvertently used wrong one. We have had councils issue PCNs like this when vehicles too close to a corner but they have no legal basis for doing so. If they reject for that reason, easy win but you will need to stick with it. See what they come back with, post it up when they do, we can take it from there. |
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 11:08
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 18 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,462 |
Thank you.
It was my blue badge. I’ve not applied for one for my son as it would only complicate things for me - then I really would use the wrong badge! I had put the correct time in. I do this as a matter of course even when it’s not needed as I’m worried about forgetting and getting a ticket. Here are pics direct just in case they are needed once the rejection comes through. Please excuse the state of the PCN, it was so wet it shredded when I pulled it out of the plastic packet. I think maybe the odd photos are to show there was no-one in the vehicle, but could be wrong. It’s the only conclusion I could come up with. I’ll post the pics of the outcome to the appeal once I receive it. |
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 11:15
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
I cannot see anything to worry on with this one then.
BB allows parking on DYLs They need to show something that removes the BB as being lawfully displayed or the contravention fails. Parking too close to corner does not remove the entitlement. For your future reference, parking too close to corners can result in police getting nadgy and serving an FPN for obstruction (or dangerous parking which is also worth points) so worth avoiding. But councils can't enforce on that, to do so they would need to add "No Loading" blips and signs which does prevent BB parking. |
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 12:56
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
I would add that if this ends up going to the tribunal, it would be worth adding a claim for costs. If they start having to pay motorists £72 a pop, they'll soon stop this nonsense.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 14:04
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Seen these a bit last year. They will come back saying you were parked within 10 metres of the junction. They cannot enforce this and will cancel at formal stage
This is the basis of formal reps for another poster. the PCn was cancelled The legal authority for decriminalized parking enforcement derives from the traffic management act of 2004. Schedule 7 (4)(2)(b) gives one of the contraventions as being “ an offence under section 5, 11, 16(1) or 16C of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 (c. 27) (contravention of certain traffic orders) of contravening a prohibition or restriction on waiting, or loading or unloading, of vehicles” The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Exemptions for Disabled Persons) (England) Regulations 2000 at regulation 8 creates an exemption for blue badge holders when correctly displaying the blue badge and time clock. There are no qualifications to this exemption and it MUST be included in all traffic management orders Contrary to the reason stated in response to my informal challenge parking within 10 meters of a junction is not a matter for civil enforcement under the Decriminalized enforcement regime. As is clear from CEO photographs and the response to informal challenge, my blue badge and time clock were correctly set and clearly displayed. I am fully entitled to the exemption afforded by the exemption for disabled persons regs As such the issuance and attempted enforcement of this PCN is Ultra vires. Cancellation of the PCN is the only legal option -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 17:29
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 18 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,462 |
Thanks for the advice and follow up of what to write. I dont normally park that close to a standard junction. Had the weather not been hellish I’d have risked being late. It was the fall risk I was concerned about and that is the only place close to the entrance without being in a permit only bay, which although not during restricted hours, were all full. It’s sods law as had the weather not been hellish, the parking attendant would have long moved on as they are only there for the hour restriction and then they move on to the next restricted time zone.
I think it’s a lesson learned for next time that I ought to phone the hospital and explain that it’s not safe for me to attend my appointment. When you’ve waited a year for a 3 month follow up cancelling doesn’t seem like an option, especially when it usually means you are discharged back to your GP to start the process all over again. But then the stress of this PCN really isn’t worth it. |
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 19:50
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Thanks for the advice and follow up of what to write. I dont normally park that close to a standard junction. Had the weather not been hellish I’d have risked being late. It was the fall risk I was concerned about and that is the only place close to the entrance without being in a permit only bay, which although not during restricted hours, were all full. It’s sods law as had the weather not been hellish, the parking attendant would have long moved on as they are only there for the hour restriction and then they move on to the next restricted time zone. I think it’s a lesson learned for next time that I ought to phone the hospital and explain that it’s not safe for me to attend my appointment. When you’ve waited a year for a 3 month follow up cancelling doesn’t seem like an option, especially when it usually means you are discharged back to your GP to start the process all over again. But then the stress of this PCN really isn’t worth it. Really do not stress over this, the council are acting outside the law and I am as sure as I can be that this will be cancelled. you will receive all the help you need in drafting challenges at all stages -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:01
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Thanks for the advice and follow up of what to write. I dont normally park that close to a standard junction. Had the weather not been hellish I’d have risked being late. It was the fall risk I was concerned about and that is the only place close to the entrance without being in a permit only bay, which although not during restricted hours, were all full. It’s sods law as had the weather not been hellish, the parking attendant would have long moved on as they are only there for the hour restriction and then they move on to the next restricted time zone. I think it’s a lesson learned for next time that I ought to phone the hospital and explain that it’s not safe for me to attend my appointment. When you’ve waited a year for a 3 month follow up cancelling doesn’t seem like an option, especially when it usually means you are discharged back to your GP to start the process all over again. But then the stress of this PCN really isn’t worth it. Really do not stress over this, the council are acting outside the law and I am as sure as I can be that this will be cancelled. you will receive all the help you need in drafting challenges at all stages Plus 1 All you need to do is follow advice, don't miss deadlines and keep calm. No stress needed. Council cannot win this one and if it gets to adjudication (90% certain it won't) some of us will be queueing up to represent you. |
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Sun, 19 Aug 2018 - 22:02
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Tanzanyte if it goes to the tribunal, there's a good chance the council will end up having to pay you, rather than the other way round.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 12:59
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 18 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,462 |
Thank you, that really helps to know I have support. I’ll definitely be following everyone’s instructions. I have no doubt I will get a refusal to the appeal because I thought it was incorrect based on what the ticket said so told them about the safety issue and mentioned I wasn’t in a restricted bay so they will just counter with the fact that my appeal was incorrect as it was the proximity to the junction.
Is there a reason they can’t state the actual reason they’ve given you a ticket rather than stating the first clause that comes up for that contravention code? |
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Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 13:15
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, pl post a draft here for review before sending.
May I also politely ask that you do not ask questions which are not central to your challenge. I’m not trying to stifle debate or input, it’s just that these bozos are likely, as you say, to reject your challenge ( what’s the law when compared with anecdote, hearsay and received wisdom!). We want the thread to grow but not groan under the weight of peripheral posts because this makes subsequent review a lengthy process. Awaiting a response to my request to the council for a copy of their current policy. I can see the banner headlines in the County Times ‘councils rob disabled drivers’ ..should grab the attention! This post has been edited by hcandersen: Mon, 20 Aug 2018 - 13:27 |
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Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 16:30
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 18 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,462 |
FYI just had this through so I'm about to try and scan the badge to send off to them. I presume this is normal protocol. It's pretty obvious from the tone that it's pointless and will be a rejection but I'll go through the motions.
Let me know if it's better for me to take a picture rather than the attachment.
Attached File(s)
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Wed, 22 Aug 2018 - 17:22
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25,726 Joined: 28 Jun 2010 From: Area 51 Member No.: 38,559 |
Send what they ask.
Usually when a council asks for something like this it is so they can tick the box that says evidence provided before they cancel. Send it, you may be pleasantly surprised. |
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Fri, 7 Sep 2018 - 10:24
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 25 Joined: 18 Aug 2018 Member No.: 99,462 |
You were right DancingDad, they have indeed cancelled the PCN. They have informed me that if I do it again I will be subject to a PCN but as it’s my first offence in that contravention they have cancelled it.
The only problem I have now is that there is literally nowhere to park as they have extended all of the standard or permit holder bays to 5metres from junctions, leaving only dyl that fall under the 01 contravention for blue badge holders so they can fine you. I have a feeling you will be hearing from more blue badge holders in this area in future. Thank you for all of your help with this. At least it’s 1 down, only Crawley to go! |
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Sat, 8 Sep 2018 - 19:49
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
They cannot enforce an 01 contravention against blue badge holders, as the blue badge provides an exemption. They can only enforce a loading restriction against blue badge holders (contravention 02) but at the moment there are no loading restrictions. Of course, to avoid the hassle you might chose to park elsewhere, but if you keep parking there and get a PCN we'll be happy to help you get it cancelled at the tribunal.
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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