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GP surgery parking ticket
harryharoon
post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 15:14
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Hello there,
got a parking ticket.

Even though they have put the signage there which can be seen now however it was not obvious .

Spoke to the GP reception and the lady said there is a sign outside our window as well saying that ''do let us know if you have parked outside''.
Again, when you want to see the doctor you don't look out for a signage especially when you have been parking there for free all the time.

GP practice should have informed its patients verbally while at the counter or they should have written to the registered patients that the place you always parked for free is not free anymore.

Any suggestions?

This post has been edited by harryharoon: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 - 16:46
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post Mon, 16 Dec 2019 - 15:14
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The Rookie
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 12:35
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Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory...........


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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 12:47
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QUOTE (harryharoon @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 11:24) *
5. It appears that the parking company ( Civil Enforcement Ltd is)  in the business of making money, solely. 

You got it.

But unfortunately you've probably turned a simple technical win into a likely court claim that you'll either have to play brinkmanship with them or pay.

They would have either cancelled with Ostell's words or POPLA would have upheld.

Now there's unlikely anything you can say that will convince POPLA.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 13:44
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QUOTE (harryharoon @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 13:20) *
Hello there,

I have put down my thoughts but can make it brief and take out the questions .

I have not got any idea what you meant by REAL POPLA APPEALS.


1) You were told a specific appeal to use, and didnt
2) What POPLA threads have you read to find out what a real appeal looks like? If "none", then guess what...
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harryharoon
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 21:15
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it would have been hard to prove that someone else was driving the car, and that would mean a lengthy process.
As I was a patient, it would have been simpler to state the actual situation.
Will have a look at some popla sample appeals
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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 21:20
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QUOTE (harryharoon @ Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 21:15) *
it would have been hard to prove that someone else was driving the car, and that would mean a lengthy process.
As I was a patient, it would have been simpler to state the actual situation.

No, no and no.

You simply had to use the appeal given.

You've made the mistake of thinking they are reasonable - as you already note they just want your cash.

There was no lengthy process about the driver. They cannot show the keeper was driving.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 - 21:21


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 08:09
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Noone said you had ot prove anything. The burden of proof, as ever, is on the claimant.

Theres a reason youre given advice, if you dont want to use it, then explaining so *before* taking an irreversible action is usually prudent.
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harryharoon
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 18:36
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I am going to write the practice manager about this charge now, let see what they have to say about it. If that did not work then I will appeal POPLA.
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The Rookie
post Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 19:17
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You’re unlikely to get an answer before your chance to appeal to POPLA has expired.

That said I don’t see you having a winning argument for POPLA having thrown away your 100% winning point so it probably won’t make any difference.

This post has been edited by The Rookie: Fri, 24 Jan 2020 - 19:17


--------------------
There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 10-0 PPC's
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harryharoon
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 14:26
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I am sending this to the practice manager on the 3rd feb also to my local MP, failing that I will appeal and if that did to work, I will take the court route.

================================================================================
=

1.I was fined £100 on 04/12/2019 by CEL (civil enforcement ltd) for parking in a bay which, according to CEL is for permit holders only.

2. I believe CEL considered me as someone who was not meant to be in the car park. I appealed and provided a letter, issued by Apex Surgery confirming my appointment that day. My appeal was refused.

3.I reported this to the Apex Medical centre reception, they told me that if I had registered my car while visiting the surgery I would not have got this ticket.

4.The parking company CEL (civil enforcement ltd) started operating from the 1st November 2019. This was my first visit since the installation of their cameras. The last time I visited Apex Surgery it was on 16 October 2019. I alwas parked on the spot and never got a parking fine.Please see attached letters from the surgery confirming my appointments.

5. While rejecting my appeal CEL maintains that there are "clear and visible signs" in the parking area. I don't belive that to be true.There is very limited signage in place which I only noticed when I had been fined and I went to the sugery to ask to see the practice manager.

6. There is no information about the new parking rules on the website homepage or anywhere else for that matter.

7. I did not receive any communication either by email, post, text or phone call informing me of the introuduction of new parking regulations

8 . I was not made aware of the newly introduced parking conditions at the time of checking in to see the doctor or at the end of my consultation with doctor when I was at the surgery reception second time.

9. When you drive/enter the GP surgery there is no signage at the enterance of the newly introduced parking regulations. Even when you drive further there is no clear signage in place. Please see the attached video.


10. As a patient you don't look for any signs at a location especially when you have been parking there for free unless they are clearly placed. There are no clear signs either at the entrance, inside the car park or in the reception area.

11. There used to be a clause in the BPA Code of Practice that if there is a change in parking arrangements at a location then these need to be heavily advertised (nice big notices) so that regular visitors are made aware of the changes that have occurred.

12. Here is an excert from NHS parking guidelines
Details of charges, concessions and additional charges should be well publicised including at car park entrances, wherever payment is made and inside the hospital. They should also be included on the hospital website and on patient letters and forms, where appropriate.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/...king-principles
As I mentioned before there was no signage in place at the car park entrance.

13. At no point during my visit I was prompted to register my car at the reception. The only prompt I received was a fine of £100. In my view this is cruel to do this to your clients who are only visiting you to get better. I would say that the Apex surgery is failing patients in their hour of need.

14. I get treated at the GP when ill so I consider myself a client of the Apex Surgery. I have been treated with disrespect and disdain by CEL, which I understand is employed by Apex or is working in collaboration with the surgery.

15.I do understand the surgery is in the business of making people better and my visit to the sugery was an effort to get better. But getting a fine for not being able to register my car at the reception has caused tremendous stress and anxiety

16.NHS set out few more guidelines
NHS organisations are responsible for the actions of private contractors who run car parks on their behalf.
That is the reason I am contacting Apex Surgery.

17. As a pratice manager I am sure you really don't want to have to deal with such non-clinical things as this, but it could easily become clinical if the harassment causes depression or a similarly induced condition.

18.When it comes to CEL contract with Apex Surgery here is another excerpt from NHS document.
Contracts should not be let on any basis that incentivises additional charges, eg ‘income from parking charge notices only’.

19. I don't have a copy of Apex Medical Practice contract with CEL however it appears that they have been incentived to make money from the patients. And if that was not the case CEL could have canceled the parking fine when I provided information that I was in the car park to see my doctor.

20. I would suggest that a review of the entire system is needed because it is not obvious or workable for ill people and it incentivises these fines as CEL's only income, contrary to the rules for any surgery or hospital car parks.

21.This regime has no place in any NHS/clinic car park, even a privately owned one.

22. Sir Greg Knight's bill would not have passed if companies like CEL did not exist.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/drivers-...rking-operators

23. I would like to mention again that patients should not be penalised for genuine errors.

24. I am not suffering from a long term condition myself but I believed plenty of surgery visitors are elderly, not very mobile and chronically ill, and I am sure the Surgery realises that abusing and penalising disabled people will in fact constitute a breach of the Equality Act 2010, not just by CEL, but also liable will be the party who contracted CEL.
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Half_way
post Sun, 2 Feb 2020 - 16:40
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There is an error in at least lines 1, 4, 5, 13, 15 that needs correcting
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 3 Feb 2020 - 08:37
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You have not been "fined", you have been snet an invoice for an alleged breach of terms.
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harryharoon
post Sat, 15 Feb 2020 - 14:54
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I got a letter from GP now (see attached)
My MP is also in touch with CEL. (see attached)

Irrespective of what the outcome is ( I have appeaed to POPLA) I would like to take CEL to court.
Does that make sense?
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 17 Feb 2020 - 08:52
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How will you take them to court? What cause of action o you have against them?
This isnt a trick question.
If YOU want to lay a claim against them, you have to have a reason to claim.
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harryharoon
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 09:30
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1.) An organisation by not following the rules and regulations causing stress and misery to the public (lack of signage)
2.) Acting against the NHS guidelines by not cancelling the ticket when the clinic confirmed that I was the patient.
3.) Had to spend hours and hours writing letter to GP to confirm my appointment, writing letter to my MP against this malpractice when I could have spent that time working.

I thought it would be only fair to do this so that they pay for doing this to me and they don't do it others in future.
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Jlc
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 09:38
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Still no cause of action. I don’t believe you have a counterclaim either.

This is all stuff for a court defence and particularly around costs.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 09:52
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Yep, identify YOUR damages first
Did they breach data protection? Did they cause a defined level of harm you can quantify?
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harryharoon
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 10:28
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Well, all I am trying to do is stop them doing this to anyone in future.
However, I will wait until POPLA decision comes back and also after any feedback from my MP.
I guess if all failed then they will take me to court I guess?
If that is true then least I can do is to defend myself.
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nosferatu1001
post Wed, 19 Feb 2020 - 15:29
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Thats not your issue, however. You have no standing.

They MAY take you to court
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harryharoon
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 21:01
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Hello

Just wanted to share with you that CEL did not want to contest anymore, probably pressure from MP or the GP surgery or both.
Don't know the details but that is the end of it. I am happy. Feel like taking them to court but not sure if I have a strong case.

Best

Harry

Thank you for submitting your parking charge Appeal to POPLA.



An Appeal has been opened with the reference xxx110xxxxx



Civil Enforcement - EW have told us they do not wish to contest the Appeal. This means that your Appeal is successful and you do not need to pay the parking charge.



Yours sincerely



POPLA Team



ET6116/001
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Jlc
post Fri, 21 Feb 2020 - 21:27
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Leave it and move on...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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