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Query re signage and new cameras in pub car park, Can I use their inadequate signage to get out of multiple 'fines&#
DodgyCameras2
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 21:38
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Hello



2 questions:

1) I thought there had to be a clear sign saying this car park was camera controlled. Instead all there is a note at the bottom of the contract notices. Is that enough? https://imageshack.com/i/pmvlrKT7j

2) The pub still has an old clamping notice up. Is this enough to invalidate any other correct up to date signage they might have? https://imageshack.com/i/pnNtZINZj

I can post all the other stuff if needed but unless there's anything here to indicate i've got a strong case I'm tempted to just pay quickly to save time and money. I'd rather not though.

Can any wise posters give any guidance? Or am I clutching at straws here?

Thanks

This post has been edited by DodgyCameras2: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 12:20
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post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 21:38
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mickR
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 22:00
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both links go to blank page for me
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DodgyCameras2
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 22:05
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Thanks for this. That's odd. They seem OK here. I'll try posting the links again

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/2930/NtZINZ.jpg

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6453/vlrKT7.jpg
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mickR
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 22:13
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yep they work. is this in scotland?
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DodgyCameras2
post Mon, 6 Dec 2021 - 22:14
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England
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hcandersen
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:32
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You trespassed because you were not a customer of the pub(or a 'resident'. Remember,you cannot just choose which conditions apply and which don't, the first sign states clearly 'Strictly residents only'). It is arguable that had you been then you would have been bound by the contract condition to enter your VRM and had you forgotten then this could have created a breach.

But you weren't and therefore IMO no breach arises and no parking charge is owed.

See what others think.

As for signs, forget it. The motorist is obliged to carry out reasonable checks and unless the car park was vast with only a single sign tucked away in a corner then IMO you would fail on these grounds.

As for 'Got a letter last week'...well it is Christmas!

If you mean you received a Notice to Keeper formatted as per Sch. 4 to PoFA, then post all of it, just delete personal details.

And edit your posts (and the title of the thread) to remove all references, direct or implied, to the driver's identity.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:34
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Jlc
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 08:51
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Post a redacted copy of PCN - there's a good chance the NtK is not so 'smart'…


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Umkomaas
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 10:50
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Smart Parking don't utilise the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (Schedule 4) to hold the keeper liable. Provided you don't reveal the driver to them, make an initial appeal stating that as they don't comply with PoFA, they cannot hold you, the keeper, liable. Smart almost always give up at this point. If they don't, with a decent second stage apoeal, POPLA will find for you.

As per Jlc's request (above), please let us see a redacted copy of their NtK (both sides - leave all dates on it visible) to confirm continuing PoFA non-compliance.
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DodgyCameras2
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 13:48
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Thank you for these excellent and helpful replies.

If i've got this right this should be the NTK with the keys bits redacted but not the dates.

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7323/rm6pKk.jpg
https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8392/DGhxis.jpg
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ostell
post Tue, 7 Dec 2021 - 15:30
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Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc


First class post with a free certificate of posting from a post office.

They will probably reject but your POPLA appeal with the other failures to comply with POFA should be successful
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DodgyCameras2
post Wed, 8 Dec 2021 - 11:39
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Fantastic. Thank you. Shall action today and post updates. Much appreciated.
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