Bylaws Padstow Harbour Commissioners, Threads merged |
Bylaws Padstow Harbour Commissioners, Threads merged |
Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:20
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 15 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,462 |
Thanks for letting me join.
In Oct. 2017 a windscreen Parking Charge Notice (PCN) was stuck to my windscreen by A S Parking at Rock Quarry Car Park Rock, North Cornwall. The land owners are Prince Charles/Duchy of Cornwall who lease this land to Padstow Harbour Commissioners (PHC). PHC are governed by Bylaws, but I have been unable to find out if this leased land is covered by their Bylaws and thus not relevant land. Having checked with the Duchy, A S Parking do NOT have their authority to make a claim against me even though they have threatened litigation through the County Court. Can anybody advise please. |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:20
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:24
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 564 Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Member No.: 95,103 |
Has the driver been identified at all. Refer to yourself as keeper and talk about "the driver".
What stage of the process are we in - is there a court claim live? Also... 'The Harbour Estate'' means the docks, piers, wharves, quays, berths, roads, bridges, sheds and other works and conveniences and the lands, buildings and property, of every description and of whatever nature, which are for the time being vested in or occupied by the Commissioners for the purposes of the Port; If they lease it I'd suspect they occupy it and then Byelaws seem relevant.... This post has been edited by bearclaw: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:31 |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:34
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
https://www.padstow-harbour.co.uk/phc_tariff.html Seems car parks are contracted to AS Parking. Harbour should be willing to send a copy of this agreement . https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showth...04#post74932304 perhaps here some useful points ATB This post has been edited by chapinahat: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 17:40 |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 18:06
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
The site says that AS Parking has been contracted to enforce Fines
It doesn't say that ASP can issue Parking Charge Notices and ASP's Code of Practice doesn't allow the company to misrepresent its authority It follows that, if ASP issues a Parking Notice, it's not only outside POFA but outside the terms of its contract The Padstow Harbour Byelaws, however, don't contain any provision to issue Penalty Notices so there can't be any fines to enforce https://www.padstow-harbour.co.uk/byelaws.pdf The legal position is therefore the same as Indigo Penalty Notices under the Railway Byelaws The Notice is an offer to avoid prosecution that the motorist is under no obligation to accept After six months, no prosecution is possible and correspondence can be ignored |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 18:19
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
Harbour Commissioners have stated 'fines' not AS Parking.. The link is to a list of +VAT tarriffs so for goods or services. So if contract is to enforce PCN/fines then is the harbour keeping the parking fees ? If so not relevant land for POFA. If ASP are running it as a Pay and Display retaining income from charges it is different to Indigo Parking on rsilway land. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=109028 The above is 2016 but seems to indicate ASP maintain land rights outside the byelaws but argue that by interpretation of the bylaws and not via a contract for their use of the land. Unless that has changed since and your ticket is 2017 then PHC out of time for prosecution https://www.padstow-harbour.co.uk/phc_meeting_04_18.pdf Car Parks are rented to AS Parking? Material fact if lease excludes the land from bylaw powers? Say a fisherman rented a garage on the harbour it would allow him to rent it out for others to use. Is this not long term parking under contract within the bylaws. Need the PHC and ASP contract. Other PCNs at this site? MSE has at least one on the harbour car park. There'll be a Harbours Act that puts the Duchy out of it unless it's parking on the seabed that's at issue This post has been edited by chapinahat: Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 21:57 |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 19:17
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 4,126 Joined: 31 Jan 2018 Member No.: 96,238 |
If you're parked on the sea-bed at Padstow are you out of a marked bay or in a big wet one ?
Either way, AS Parking's contract with the Harbour Commissioners isn't your immediate problem |
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Fri, 15 Feb 2019 - 22:23
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 482 Joined: 13 Jan 2014 Member No.: 67,950 |
I've not been to Rock for a few years. However, back in 2014 there was a sign in place on the approach road to Rock Quarry Car Park which seemed to indicate that the Padstow Harbour 1991 Byelaws did apply there. I've uploaded a picture here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/142532723@N08...eposted-public/ |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 06:54
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
OP in csr park not access road. Interesting scenario on road as there bylaws could apply (obstruction) though the notice of private land claims not. ATB |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 07:58
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#9
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
Situation here is land over which criminal laws apply. The point is will a lease allow a contract for use of the land under public law. Simple answee is yes so long as the goods and services do not break the law. By that if prosecuted for parking you cannot be in a contract illegal consideration. Can one be sued for the damages consequent from a criminal deed? In some circumstances yes. So if the bylaws absolutely exclude any parking then enforcement and prosecution though only prosecution has to be by PHC. If bylaws State similar to "no parking outside of allocated land" then parking is permitted and a contract is possible .APS and POFA If bylaws list prohibited vehicle uses then anything not listed is permitted. Maybe both? OP needs to clarify land use I have not gone thorough this to the fine detail so may have overlooked or made a mistake. Finding the mistakes by application scenario is how a strong case is built. Law is complex and it's deciided rules are not based on common sense but justice and equity. I have made this effort as I enjoy jurisprudence and tidying knotted string |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 09:40
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
So it was a parking charge notice on byelaw land and therefore not relevant land for POFA. Issued under the byelaws it would have been penalty charge, but do the byelaws actually allow for penalties?
So get back to them (I presume you have a Letter Before Claim) and tell them that there is no liability. You are the keeper and being land subject to byelaws then it is not relevant land for the purpose of Schedule 4 of The protection of Freedoms Act 2012 and therefore there can be no keeper liability. To claim otherwise and threaten court action is mischievous and bound to fail. If they continue you will claim your full costs from them because of their unreasonable behaviour. |
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 12:12
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#11
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Member Group: Members Posts: 28,687 Joined: 27 Nov 2007 Member No.: 15,642 |
Chap - the byelaws control parking, meaning it's not relevant land. That's it.
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 12:35
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Nosferatu:- What is the agenda of this guy? PPC trying to frighten people into paying or just started on a course of law at a college and has no yet learnt to separate the wheat from the chaff?
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 15:29
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#13
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Member Group: Members Posts: 419 Joined: 22 Oct 2018 Member No.: 100,530 |
Dunning-Kruger? If it's the second of your options Ostell, whilst it's great that they are *trying* to help, it would be much more helpful if they qualified their advice with a "I'm new to parking cases so you may want to check what the others think", rather than offering their advice with an air of gravitas that it really doesn't warrant.
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Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 16:35
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Nosferatu:- What is the agenda of this guy? PPC trying to frighten people into paying or just started on a course of law at a college and has no yet learnt to separate the wheat from the chaff? +1 I have queried a number of his previous posts that he has not had the grace to acknowledge or answer. This post has been edited by cabbyman: Sat, 16 Feb 2019 - 16:37 -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 08:27
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#15
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 15 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,462 |
Thanks for all comments, appreciated.
If I assume that this car park does comes under PHC Bylaws I presume it means that this PCN is dead in the water as The Statute of Limitations (6 months) is long gone. Out of interest I named the driver (did not know any better at the time) What consequences would this have resulted in? This post has been edited by Ralph Fine: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 08:28 |
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 08:41
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 74 Joined: 9 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,366 |
Hi
There seems to be move by PPCs to action in County Court for PCNs issued on land under authority of harbours, railways and airports. One case at Robin Hood Airport ( http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=120796) was decided for the PPC and there are LBC sent for a number at Newcaste Airport. It seems they (PPCs via BPA ?) may have legal argument for a contract over the byelaws. This is a point I have been exploring out of interest. How to defend such an argument? Back to details of byelaws and contract between authority and PPC plus usual , perhaps, POFA as cannot have it both ways on the relevant land argument. From reading the responses by a PPC to byelaws defence it is not definitive - land use changed (contract over byelaw) - enforcement (contract slongside byelaw) In the OPs situation I found minutes mentioned rental income from car parks so on known flimsy facts have contract over byelaws BUT was this the situation at the time of the OPs issue. From reading a selection of minutes earlier records refer to varying car park income? ATB This post has been edited by chapinahat: Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 10:00 |
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:18
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,898 Joined: 15 Dec 2007 From: South of John O'Groats, north of Cape Town. Member No.: 16,066 |
Ralph Fine, ignore the contents of posts #3, 5, 8, 9 & 16. We believe the poster has an agenda and the comments cannot be relied upon.
As a guide to the weight you should put on any posts, the post count and date of joining the forum which is to the left of every post, should be taken into account. If you are unsure, ask the forum for further opinions. In this particular case, the RK is NOT liable under PoFA because, being covered by byelaws, the land falls outside the definition of relevant land contained in the Act. However, as you have named the driver, you need to challenge the signage and standing. Get some pictures of the signs. Others will be along to help tidy up the advice from the forum, generally. -------------------- Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 12:24
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 17,088 Joined: 8 Mar 2013 Member No.: 60,457 |
Contact them and demand that they state who they are claiming against, is this the driver or the keeper? Failing to make clear will result in asking for any claim to be held until such time as the claimant provides a clear Particular of Claims.
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Sun, 17 Feb 2019 - 20:24
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#19
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Member Group: Members Posts: 564 Joined: 15 Nov 2017 Member No.: 95,103 |
Hi Harbour Commissioners have stated 'fines' not AS Parking.. The link is to a list of +VAT tarriffs so for goods or services. So if contract is to enforce PCN/fines then is the harbour keeping the parking fees ? If so not relevant land for POFA. If ASP are running it as a Pay and Display retaining income from charges it is different to Indigo Parking on rsilway land. ...... I have not gone thorough this to the fine detail It shows... Do you realise what the relevant land provision in POFA is about and how it applies? A commercial contract won't override statue law... |
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Wed, 17 Apr 2019 - 11:59
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#20
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 4 Joined: 15 Feb 2019 Member No.: 102,462 |
Thanks for letting me join. In Oct. 2017 a windscreen Parking Charge Notice (PCN) was stuck to my windscreen by A S Parking at Rock Quarry Car Park Rock, North Cornwall. The land owners are Prince Charles/Duchy of Cornwall who lease this land to Padstow Harbour Commissioners (PHC). PHC are governed by Bylaws, but I have been unable to find out if this leased land is covered by their Bylaws and thus not relevant land. Having checked with the Duchy, A S Parking do NOT have their authority to make a claim against me even though they have threatened litigation through the County Court. Can anybody advise please. I have spent some time looking into whether Padstow Harbour Commissioners leased car park is covered by Bylaws. Pofa states:"a parking place which is provided or controlled by a traffic authority". This is basically it, which I believe is enough. However, as stated, I have named the driver. I understood that a PCN on non relevant land can only be enforced through a Magistrates Court and in which case has a 6 month time scale to do this under the Statute of Limitations. Is this or correct? |
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