Failing to comply with a no entry sign, Does there need to be 2 no entry signs at the start of the road? |
Failing to comply with a no entry sign, Does there need to be 2 no entry signs at the start of the road? |
Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 17:07
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Member No.: 12,914 |
I've recently been issued with a 'Failing to comply with a no entry sign' notice which has surprised me as I don't usually make a habit of driving the wrong way up roads. However, the notice contained a rather clear picture of me parking just at the end of a road with a no entry sign.
I remember the day in question and I did indeed enter the street to take a parking space but this was only because I did not notice the sign. The only no entry sign at the end of the road is set back from the road I turned from and would have been partially or fully obscured by shop awnings. I have seen in other posts people mention there must be 2 no entry signs. Is this definitely the case? And if it is where is this prescribed? Also, The only applicable grounds for me to appeal appears to be 'The alleged contravention did not occur'. Should I be appealing on these grounds? Did the contravention not occur because there was only 1 sign? Here is the picture taken by the CCTV operator/spy....notice there is a single no entry sign and a pole on the other side of the road that I suspect should be showing the other no entry sign (the one that would have been obvious to me and would have prevented me from turning down the street!) Another image of me entering the street... FYI - The notice was sent by Lambeth council and the location on the notice is Electric Avenue in Brixton. |
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Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 17:07
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Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 17:17
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,312 Joined: 5 May 2007 From: ooot int sticks Member No.: 11,891 |
Look here http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tslegi...fficsignsre4177 section 54, and here for correct signage http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/02311334.gif
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Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 17:30
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 436 Joined: 12 Nov 2006 Member No.: 8,921 |
Can you post a scan of the PCN. It may contain errors. Lambeth have recently changed the design so we would need to see which one you have been sent.
Are there any no right/left turn signs on the approach to this junction that give advance warning of the no entry? -------------------- More about box junction enforcement on my website: Money Box Junction
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Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 17:43
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 6,783 Joined: 6 Jul 2006 Member No.: 6,518 |
can be on just one side if approach is one way or if prohibite road is less than 5meteres in width
(the carriageway) - see above post for full details however even lawful signs can still be misleading - howver i doubt his is the case from the photo |
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Tue, 24 Jul 2007 - 00:41
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#5
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Member Group: Members Posts: 8,639 Joined: 5 Jul 2003 Member No.: 134 |
The only applicable grounds for me to appeal appears to be 'The alleged contravention did not occur'. Should I be appealing on these grounds? Did the contravention not occur because there was only 1 sign? Yep; see below. Are there any no right/left turn signs on the approach to this junction that give advance warning of the no entry? Irrelevent to the 'No Entry' contravention, although, if there were, that would be an additional contravention. can be on just one side if approach is one way or if prohibite road is less than 5meteres in width (the carriageway) - see above post for full details But not in this case, if it wasn't for the 'constructed obstruction' feature (the build out), the carriageway would be nore than 5 metres wide. An interesting point, and I am not aware of any case law on the subject yet, but does a build out on the carriageway mean that the carrigeway is not a carriageway any more? Probably, but fortunately it doesn't matter in this case. Either, 1) it is no longer part of the carriageway, in which case the single sign exception in Direction 8(4)(b)(ii) (about 3/4s the way down) does not apply, because the sign is not within 2 metres of the edge of the carriageway, or 2) it is still part of the carriageway, in which case the carriageway is more than 5 metres wide, so it doesn't apply in this case either. So, they can only use the single sign exception if the road that you turned out of is a one way street (it doesn't appear to be). BTW, from the photo, the single sign seems to be at the wide part of the carriageway anyway, so it wouldn't apply, but that may be an optical illusion. This post has been edited by jeffreyarcher: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 - 00:52 |
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Tue, 24 Jul 2007 - 12:29
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#6
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 2 Joined: 23 Jul 2007 Member No.: 12,914 |
Wow..you guys reply pretty quickly.
Ok...so, to answer some of the queries.... Sorry, I don't have access to a scanner at the moment so I won't be able to send in the PCN...the reference on the bottom of the stationary has the date 06/03/07 so I'm guessing if that is around the date Lambeth changed the PCN design I have a new version. Does this make a difference? And as far as I know there wasn't a 'No Left Turn' sign leading up to the junction (else I wouldn't have turned left!!) I'm a little confused as to what is or isn't part of the carriageway - I think maybe I need to clarify the road layout. My car is parked on an area marked out for market stalls, which double as parking spaces on non-market days. The actual surface is the same level for the road, the bays and the pavement (i.e. there are no raised kerbs - apart from the built out section at the start of the road). The 'road' and parking bays are demarcated with painted lines. I'm assuming the carriageway does not include the market stall/parking bays but I'm not certain - can anyone confirm? The road I turned off (Atlantic Road) is not 1 way...and the prohibited carriageway is less than 5m wide (assuming the bays are not carriageway) so I guess the key to this is whether the 'No Entry' sign is more than 2m away from the carriageway (I presume it needs to be 2m from the prohibited road and not 2m from the road I turned off?). I think it's going to be touch and go whether it is 2m from the kerb but I'll get my tape measure out and have a look. Thanks for all the info...I'll keep you up to date as to how I get on. |
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Tue, 24 Jul 2007 - 17:44
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 1,254 Joined: 19 Sep 2006 Member No.: 7,753 |
Sorry, I don't have access to a scanner at the moment so I won't be able to send in the PCN Best find someone with a scanner. There is no way anyone can give you best advice about the compliance of the PCN without seeing a copy of it front and back (don't forget to remove all personal details including barcodes). |
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Tue, 24 Jul 2007 - 23:36
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 8,639 Joined: 5 Jul 2003 Member No.: 134 |
I'm a little confused as to what is or isn't part of the carriageway - I think maybe I need to clarify the road layout. My car is parked on an area marked out for market stalls, which double as parking spaces on non-market days. The actual surface is the same level for the road, the bays and the pavement (i.e. there are no raised kerbs - apart from the built out section at the start of the road). The 'road' and parking bays are demarcated with painted lines. I'm assuming the carriageway does not include the market stall/parking bays but I'm not certain - can anyone confirm? The 'road' includes the 'carriageway' and the footway (whether or not it is raised). The 'carriageway', therefore, includes the market stall/parking bays. and the prohibited carriageway is less than 5m wide (assuming the bays are not carriageway) so I guess the key to this is whether the 'No Entry' sign is more than 2m away from the carriageway <...> I think it's going to be touch and go whether it is 2m from the kerb but I'll get my tape measure out and have a look. Assuming that the sign is not adjacent to the build-out (see previous post if it is), in order to qualify for the single sign exemption, the sign must be; 1) Within 2 metres of edge of the carrigeway (which includes the market stall/parking bays), i.e. the edge of the footway, and 2) the carriageway must be less than 5 metres wide (it looks wider from the photo). (I presume it needs to be 2m from the prohibited road and not 2m from the road I turned off?). 2 netres from the prohibited carriageway. |
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