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loading/unloading
fuel__2001
post Mon, 28 May 2007 - 00:49
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Well my first post and I finally took some advice from this website and now take photos of signs and markings when receiving tickets.


I work as a motorcycle courier around London and im always conscious about where to load/unload paying close attention to the signs.



The recent ticket I received I had stopped to load/unload underneath this sign and was well within the time it states





loading to the left of the white lines marking the parking bays.





Also from where I left the vehicle I couldn’t see any other signs relating to loading/unloading.within the street.


When I ask the warden why hes issued me a ticket he walks me almost into the other street and points me to another sign which is placed on the corner of the street facing at an angle toward the other road and is not really visible from where I had stopped. Its only when I walk into the middle of the road to take photos or walk to the bend where the other road begins does the sign appear visible, if u see the no entry sign then the unloading/loading plate is almost at 45 degrees to the road i was parked in.





I went returned to the area a few days later to take more photos (the bike is not in the exact position and a van is one of the pictures) just to show the angle and overall placing of all signs and markings








I also followed the line to its end which is in another street and find no T on the end of the yellow line but just a broken yellow line



I hope somone is able to help point me in the right direction of how best to appeal, road markings bad sign placing, do you think i have a case to appeal?

Many thanks

John


This post has been edited by fuel__2001: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 - 01:31


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post Mon, 28 May 2007 - 00:49
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whitewing
post Mon, 28 May 2007 - 13:25
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QUOTE (fuel__2001 @ Mon, 28 May 2007 - 01:49) *
Well my first post and I finally took some advice from this website and now take photos of signs and markings when receiving tickets.

[/size]

I work as a motorcycle courier around London and im always conscious about where to load/unload paying close attention to the signs.



The recent ticket I received I had stopped to load/unload underneath this sign and was well within the time it states



and to the left of the white lines marking the parking bays.




Also from where I left the vehicle I couldn’t see any other signs relating to loading/unloading.within the street.



[size="3"]


When I ask the warden why hes issued me a ticket he walks me almost into the other street and points me to another sign which is placed on the corner of the street facing at an angle toward the other road and is not really visible from where I had stopped. Its only when I walk into the middle of the road to take photos or walk to the bend where the other road begins does the sign appear visible, if u see the no entry sign then the unloading/loading plate is almost at 45 degrees to the road i was parked in.







I went returned to the area a few days later to take more photos (the bike is not in the exact position and a van is one of the pictures) just to show the angle and overall placing of all signs and markings






I hope somone is able to help point me in the right direction of how best to appeal, road markings bad sign placing etc

Man thanks

John



Doesn't loading only cover things that can't reasonably be carried ? If so I'd have thought anything that you could take on a bike would be outside this definition...
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fuel__2001
post Mon, 28 May 2007 - 19:30
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here is an extract about loading/unloading taken from here

Commercial vehicles are allowed to collect and deliver goods. If any paperwork needs to be checked, such as delivery notes or invoices, the time this takes can be included in the loading/unloading time allowed. Obviously, the vehicle must be moved after the delivery or collection has taken place

I think the way the sign is angled is what i can try and appeal on, its just trying to find the information about displaying signs that im having trouble locating

This post has been edited by fuel__2001: Mon, 28 May 2007 - 19:32


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fuel__2001
post Sun, 3 Jun 2007 - 08:39
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QUOTE
The recent ticket I received I had stopped to load/unload underneath this sign and was well within the time it states





loading to the left of the white lines marking the parking bays.




Do you think i can argue about the wording on the sign isnt correct, would this make the whole sign invalid? It seems they have replaced the word "machine" with "meter"

Check out the link

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2002/02311358.gif


P.S finally got my pictures to link correctly, now you can view them in full size biggrin.gif


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mrmorgan
post Sun, 3 Jun 2007 - 09:40
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that is one complex sign my word
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Chas820
post Sun, 3 Jun 2007 - 11:19
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QUOTE
I'd have thought anything that you could take on a bike would be outside this definition...



I carried a gearbox in my topcase once,you wouldn`t want to walk far with that tucked under your arm.
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fuel__2001
post Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 19:51
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So i sent off my first challenge to this PCN and got a reply back after almost (i think) 8 weeks. I thought i now better post the PCN in the hope that its non-compliant.





In my first letter, i said about the complex sign and there being no arrow on the sign to tell me what direction the parking restrictions were.



In thier reply to my letter they said i should adhere to this sign, as you can see its at a funny angle to the road i was loading in



Heres another shot, the van is in the way of the big confusing plate, you get the jist of the angle te sign is at



So shall i just pay the £50 and go quietly about my business and does anyone think i still have grounds to carry on?

Thanks


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DW190
post Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 21:06
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If the sign is not present in the Trafic signs and regulations 2002 they have no legal status. I am sure this would invalidate the restriction.

Also the PCN is absent of the vitel words "beginning with the date of issue".

and

(3) A penalty charge notice must state—
(a) the grounds on which the parking attendant believes that a penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle;
(b) the amount of the penalty charge which is payable;
© that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice;
(d) that if the penalty charge is paid before the end of the period of 14 days beginning with the date of the notice, the amount of the penalty charge will be reduced by the specified proportion;
(e) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, a notice to owner may be served by the London authority on the person appearing to them to be the owner of the vehicle;
(f) the address to which payment of the penalty charge must be sent.


Your PCN only says on the payment slip "Please refer to the payment instructions on the reverse"

The payment slip does not form part of the PCN so the payment instruction should be in the main body of the notice.

Its worth the minor risk for the fun and the experience, + it keeps them busy.


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nimh999
post Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 21:21
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QUOTE (DW190 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:06) *
Your PCN only says on the payment slip "Please refer to the payment instructions on the reverse"

Isn't this in the main body of the PCN?
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DW190
post Sun, 22 Jul 2007 - 15:12
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QUOTE (nimh999 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:21) *
QUOTE (DW190 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:06) *
Your PCN only says on the payment slip "Please refer to the payment instructions on the reverse"

Isn't this in the main body of the PCN?


Errm No. See Mcarthur v Bury.

QUOTE
(a) The specimen PCN shows, at the top, a “Date of Issue”. The Bury PCN does not have
any date shown specifically as the date of the notice, or the date of issue. The payment
slip shows a “Date” and the body of the PCN itself shows the date of the alleged
contravention, but the PCN itself does not separately show the date of the notice.


Although this relates to a "date" it is a date that must be on the PCN. So if the PCN must show an address to make payment it must be on the PCN itself and not on the payment slip or there must be something on the PCN (not the payment slip) directing you where and how to pay.


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DW190

BLUNT PENCILS ARE MORE RELIABLE THAN SHARP MEMORIES

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nimh999
post Sun, 22 Jul 2007 - 21:57
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QUOTE (DW190 @ Sun, 22 Jul 2007 - 16:12) *
QUOTE (nimh999 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:21) *
QUOTE (DW190 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:06) *
Your PCN only says on the payment slip "Please refer to the payment instructions on the reverse"

Isn't this in the main body of the PCN?


Errm No. See Mcarthur v Bury.

DW. OK. I was looking at "For full details look overleaf" which was in the main body.

I can now see that you were looking at "For payment details see overleaf" which is in the tear off slip
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fuel__2001
post Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 23:03
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QUOTE (DW190 @ Sun, 22 Jul 2007 - 16:12) *
QUOTE (nimh999 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:21) *
QUOTE (DW190 @ Sat, 21 Jul 2007 - 22:06) *
Your PCN only says on the payment slip "Please refer to the payment instructions on the reverse"

Isn't this in the main body of the PCN?


Errm No. See Mcarthur v Bury.

QUOTE
(a) The specimen PCN shows, at the top, a “Date of Issue”. The Bury PCN does not have
any date shown specifically as the date of the notice, or the date of issue. The payment
slip shows a “Date” and the body of the PCN itself shows the date of the alleged
contravention, but the PCN itself does not separately show the date of the notice.


Although this relates to a "date" it is a date that must be on the PCN. So if the PCN must show an address to make payment it must be on the PCN itself and not on the payment slip or there must be something on the PCN (not the payment slip) directing you where and how to pay.


The section above the tear off slip on the reverse of the ticket tells me where to pay. Does any of the reverse of the ticket constitute part of the PCN?

If it doesnt then i think i have a good case to argue


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DW190
post Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 23:52
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QUOTE (fuel__2001 @ Tue, 24 Jul 2007 - 00:03) *
The section above the tear off slip on the reverse of the ticket tells me where to pay. Does any of the reverse of the ticket constitute part of the PCN? if it doesnt then i think i have a good case to argue



Only if you are directed to it from the main body of the notice.

This post has been edited by DW190: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 - 23:53


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DW190

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