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PCN Recieved - Can i appeal and win?
sunnyb18759
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 19:54
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I received a PCN on the 4th Jan, it arrived in the post 9th Jan instructing I have 14 days from the date issue to pay £65, or £100 after.

In 2013, someone on this site helped me appeal and win a case with a template letter.

I was hoping if someone could help me with this one. I have attached the PCN.

I also still have that template letters someone gave me which I mention earlier 5 years ago.

Are the laws relating to parking on private property still the same? Can I still do something similar now and win an appeal?

I have a about 4 days before the 14 day period and I may have to pay £100 as oppose to £65

Can anyone help?

This post has been edited by sunnyb18759: Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:11
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post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 19:54
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:27
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No template letter will work here. They will reject any appeal and will almost certainly raise a court claim. (But that doesn't mean it should be paid)

Can we see pictures of the signs?

QUOTE (sunnyb18759 @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 19:54) *
Are the laws relating to parking on private property still the same? Can I still do something similar now and win an appeal?

A lot has changed...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cabbyman
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:46
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The first point is that they failed to serve the notice within 14 days as mandated by PoFA.

I agree with Jlc, no templates work these days. Each case much be dealt with on its' merits. Forget about about the £100/£65 blackmail attempt.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:54
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QUOTE (cabbyman @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:46) *
The first point is that they failed to serve the notice within 14 days as mandated by PoFA.

Contravention on 24th December and issued on 4th January - would be presumed delivered on 8th January. (But was actually a day later than this)

So indeed, they have failed to comply with PoFA to hold the keeper liable. (That is deliver the notice within 14 days)

They are misrepresenting their legal position. (We always get a few of these over the Xmas period but there's no allowances in the Act)

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 20:55


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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sunnyb18759
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 21:09
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So i'm not sure what failing PoFA means, but is that enough to win something like this. And how would do that?

I can easily pay £60 but I know I won this kind of thing previously. And if they've not followed the law correctly then why should I pay.

I know in the past a guy on her helped me and at the time, I was in 2 mind and didn't think I could win, but he convinced me not to pay and I didn't and helped me win.

The incident happened on 24th Dec, issued on the 4th Jan, received in the post 9th Jan

I can get a photo of the sign tomorrow morning
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Jlc
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 21:12
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QUOTE (sunnyb18759 @ Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 21:09) *
So i'm not sure what failing PoFA means

Here.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Mon, 14 Jan 2019 - 21:27
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You've left the reference number in that picture

Parking companies follow this forum and will use any information they find such as the identity of the driver or the admission of a mistake
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nosferatu1001
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:03
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Failing to comply with the requirements of POFA simply means they cannot hold the KEEPER liable
Tey can still chase the driver.
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ostell
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 12:48
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Try this, if it applies

Dear Sirs,

I have just received your Notice to Keeper xxxxx for vehicle VRM xxxx

You have failed to comply with the requirements of Schedule 4 of The Protection Of Freedoms Act 2012 namely, but not limited to, failing to deliver the notice within the relevant period of 14 days as prescribed by section 9 (4) of the Act. You cannot, therefore, transfer liability for the alleged charge from the driver at the time to me, the keeper.

There is no legal requirement to name the driver at the time and I will not be doing so.

Any further communication with me on this matter, apart from confirmation of no further action and my details being removed from your records, will be considered vexatious and harassment. This includes communication from any Debt Collection companies you care to instruct.

Yours etc
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sunnyb18759
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:52
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Thanks all, for what seems to very good information.

I have uploaded the the sign to my original post. The board which is suppose to be the contract.

In truth we realise what has happened here, they have changed from 1 hour maximum park to 15 minutes. We didn't realise the change and hence why I am where I am. Kind of unfair, as i didn't realise the change. We are usually good with where we park our car, just made a mistake.

So you mention the point of PoFA and the event happened on 24th Dec, Issued Friday 4th Jan, delivered on the 9th Jan. So falling out side the 14 day period. But can CPM argue that there was a guaranteed Monday post, if delivery on Monday 7th would be 14 days?

The other point is the photos of the car in the PCN are not of the car parked in the car park. Does that matter?
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ostell
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 22:57
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Issued on the 4th, a Friday, so assumed delivered 2 working days later Tuesday 8th. POFA 9 (6) You say it was delivered on the 9th. Bet they can't prove it was issued on the 4th.
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Ollyfrog
post Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 23:41
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QUOTE (sunnyb18759 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:52) *
In truth we realise what has happened here, they have changed from 1 hour maximum park to 15 minutes. We didn't realise the change and hence why I am where I am. Kind of unfair, as i didn't realise the change. We are usually good with where we park our car, just made a mistake.


Pretty sure they have to make much bigger warnings visible if they have changed their terms so that they can't "catch out" regular users of a car park. Letting everyone know that things have changed. The experts will confirm / or dismiss this for you as I'm just skulking around the forums trying to learn hiding.gif
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 08:49
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QUOTE (sunnyb18759 @ Tue, 15 Jan 2019 - 20:52) *
So you mention the point of PoFA and the event happened on 24th Dec, Issued Friday 4th Jan, delivered on the 9th Jan. So falling out side the 14 day period. But can CPM argue that there was a guaranteed Monday post, if delivery on Monday 7th would be 14 days?

The presumption of delivery is 2 working days.

So that's the 8th. And indeed, it was actually later than that.

Guaranteed post?

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:36


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 08:52
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The BPA have an item in their CoP that any changes to conditions must be made clear before action to enforce is taken. This is IPC so I don't recollect what they say on the matter.

No Matter, just send off that out of time letter.
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 10:38
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QUOTE (ostell @ Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 08:52) *
This is IPC so I don't recollect what they say on the matter.


QUOTE
Where there is any change in the terms and conditions materially affecting the motorist you
may place additional (temporary) signage at the entrance making it clear that new terms and
conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the old terms
do not inadvertently incur parking charges. This signage should be in addition to the signage
ordinarily required.


My emphasis.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Redivi
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:03
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IPC Code of Practice Part E

Changes in Operator’s Terms and Conditions

Where there is any change to any pre-existing terms and conditions that would not be immediately apparent to a person visiting the site and which materially affects the motorist you should place additional (temporary) signage at the entrance making it clear that new terms and conditions/charges apply, such that regular visitors who may be familiar with the old terms do not inadvertently incur parking charges.
This signage should be in addition to the signage ordinarily required and left in place for an appropriate period.


Describe it in the appeal as a breach of the code of practice

A company must be in compliance with its code to enforce parking notices in court
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Jlc
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:14
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'May' and 'should' though. It would be far better if it said must.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:15


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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ostell
post Wed, 16 Jan 2019 - 11:57
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So have you sent the letter off before the time to appeal times out?
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sunnyb18759
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 18:39
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I have uploaded the appeals process set out by this company. I have as they state 21 days from date given to me, which is the 9th January. So I believe I have time.

I have typed out a letter. Still wondering if I should send or not, just a bit nervous not know what will happen.

I have also uploaded a screenshot of section 9 (4, 5 and 6) which I believe are relevant here from

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/9...edule/4/enacted

So we are basing our argument on the point below of PoFA

(4)The notice must be given by—
(a)handing it to the keeper, or leaving it at a current address for service for the keeper, within the relevant period; or
(b)sending it by post to a current address for service for the keeper so that it is delivered to that address within the relevant period.
(5)The relevant period for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4) is the period of 14 days beginning with the day after that on which the specified period of parking ended.
(6)A notice sent by post is to be presumed, unless the contrary is proved, to have been delivered (and so “given” for the purposes of sub-paragraph (4)) on the second working day after the day on which it is posted; and for this purpose “working day” means any day other than a Saturday, Sunday or a public holiday in England and Wales.

This post has been edited by sunnyb18759: Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:03
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cabbyman
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:50
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Send the letter, NOW, INSTANTLY!

As Ostell asked, at post #18, time was running out. You are now over the deadline, but send it anyway.


--------------------
Cabbyman 11 PPCs 0
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