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Counting days from Rejection Notice
44eldred
post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 12:05
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Can I still challenge this or have a run out of time? If I go to the council's website it still offers me the option of paying £130.

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post Tue, 11 Dec 2018 - 12:05
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:09
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"within 28 days of the date of service" is wrong, adding a day.

It's 28 beginning with DoS.

--

As a thought, did they enclose ET&A forms and pre-fill any of it?


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Neil is good at working backwards.

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Guest_Newname_*
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:11
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Fao Neil

With respect, you've posted ambiguous answers AND the forum supposedly is to find help rather than to provide perfect legal advice. That said, even legal advice can be wrong, misleading, ambiguous.

There are other errors here too that suggest others don't know everything either. So the reader has to sift through the answers to glean information.

Of course there is a lot I don't know. Hence posting my question on PCNs and Charge Certificates. But there is nothing wrong with posting an answer based on experience in simply trying to be helpful. No-one was responding to this post so I just jumped in.

Sadly what councils say and do isn't fixed but also ambiguous. Hence confusion over what the heck they mean by date of service.

But experience counts and can be helpful

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44eldred
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:12
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No, just three pages, the ones I’ve posted and a photo of the location (my appeal was based on signage)
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stamfordman
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:15
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Word to the wise Newname (an apt name) - Neil has 19,900 posts. He knows what he's talking about. On this sort of forum it's wise to watch, wait and learn before jumping in.
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44eldred
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:15
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:09) *
"within 28 days of the date of service" is wrong, adding a day.

It's 28 beginning with DoS


Well that explains my counting. I’m going to call LONDON Tribunals tomorrow as you suggested and explain
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:23
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QUOTE (44eldred @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:12) *
No, just three pages, the ones I’ve posted and a photo of the location (my appeal was based on signage)

I guess they're no longer required to send them out (?)
I think they used to pre-fill the NoR date, which might have differed.

Let us know what LT have to say for themselves tomorrow.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:37
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QUOTE (Newname @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 19:11) *
you've posted ambiguous answers

Yeah, my post #9 in your thread, where I forgot to post the link to the case I was referencing.
Thanks for letting me know!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:53
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I don't think any one of the regular poster here would claim to know everything, we give advice based on our experience of the tribunal and councils responses to representations /appeals.
We offer up technical arguments re the validity of signage and or documents based on what the regulations require. Sometimes adjudicators agree as per the case I posted other times they do not. Ce la vie.


You have to look at what is posted and decide what you will do it is not for us to tell you


What I will tell you is that the date by which you may make representations is set in law for a NoR posted on the 20th of December it would be Sunday the 20th of Jan



See

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/schedule/1/enacted

schedule 1 4(1)
(1)
Where an enforcing authority serve a notice of rejection, the person who made the representations under paragraph 1 above in respect of which that notice was served may, before—
(a)
the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of that notice; or
(b)
such longer period as a traffic adjudicator may allow,
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Neil B
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:59
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:53) *
(b)
such longer period as a traffic adjudicator may allow,

and missing that too.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 21:09
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:59) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Mon, 21 Jan 2019 - 20:53) *
(b)
such longer period as a traffic adjudicator may allow,

and missing that too.


Yep and is crucial if the tribunal misinformed the OP of his right to appeal
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44eldred
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:55
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Special thanks to Neil B, called LT today and naughty RBKUT gave them the 13th Dec for the date of the NOR. It's now been corrected in their system and my appeal has been scheduled. So I now have more evidence of their ineptitude/dishonesty for my case. Also I have the charge certificate they've sent me before my appeal window is up. I am looking forward to this now.
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Neil B
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:01
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QUOTE (44eldred @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:55) *
Special thanks to Neil B, called LT today and naughty RBKUT gave them the 13th Dec for the date of the NOR. It's now been corrected in their system and my appeal has been scheduled. So I now have more evidence of their ineptitude/dishonesty for my case. Also I have the charge certificate they've sent me before my appeal window is up. I am looking forward to this now.

Are you going to be able to prove (document that)?
Slam dunk win if you can, imo.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:42
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:01) *
QUOTE (44eldred @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:55) *
Special thanks to Neil B, called LT today and naughty RBKUT gave them the 13th Dec for the date of the NOR. It's now been corrected in their system and my appeal has been scheduled. So I now have more evidence of their ineptitude/dishonesty for my case. Also I have the charge certificate they've sent me before my appeal window is up. I am looking forward to this now.

Are you going to be able to prove (document that)?
Slam dunk win if you can, imo.

If the charge certificate was issued too early (which the date on the charge certificate can confirm), I would say it's game over for the council.


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I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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44eldred
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:44
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I don't have any written evidence from the LT but I've annotated the phone calls and times and I'm adding it to my appeal. Also the charge certificate was issued within my appeal window, so that's supporting documentation as it shows that RBUK can't count properly.

Is the charge certificate legislation the same for moving traffic offences as parking ones? I'd like to quote the correct legislation re the wording of the 28 days but I can only find this

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) General Regulations 2007.

Service by post
3.—(1) Subject to paragraph (5), any notice (except a penalty charge notice served under regulation 9) or charge certificate under these Regulations —
(a) may be served by first class (but not second class) post; and
(b) where the person on whom it is to be served is a body corporate, is duly served if it is sent by first class post to the secretary or clerk of that body.
(2) Service of a notice or charge certificate contained in a letter sent by first class post which has been properly addressed, pre-paid and posted shall, unless the contrary is proved, be taken to have been effected on the second working day after the day of posting.
(3) In paragraph (2), “working day” means any day except—
(a) a Saturday or a Sunday;
(b) New Year’s Day;
© Good Friday;
(d) Christmas Day;
(e) any other day which is a bank holiday in England and Wales under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971(a).


And this:

The Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007
Rejection of representations against notice to owner
6.—(1) Where representations are made under regulation 4 and the enforcement authority serves a notice of rejection under regulation 5(2)(b), that notice shall—
(a)state that a charge certificate may be served unless before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the notice of rejection
(i)the penalty charge is paid; or
(ii)the person on whom the notice is served appeals to an adjudicator against the penalty charge;
(b)indicate the nature of an adjudicator’s power to award costs; and
©describe in general terms the form and manner in which an appeal to an adjudicator must be made.



This post has been edited by 44eldred: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:45
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Neil B
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:46
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:42) *
QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:01) *
QUOTE (44eldred @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 11:55) *
Special thanks to Neil B, called LT today and naughty RBKUT gave them the 13th Dec for the date of the NOR. It's now been corrected in their system and my appeal has been scheduled. So I now have more evidence of their ineptitude/dishonesty for my case. Also I have the charge certificate they've sent me before my appeal window is up. I am looking forward to this now.

Are you going to be able to prove (document that)?
Slam dunk win if you can, imo.

If the charge certificate was issued too early (which the date on the charge certificate can confirm), I would say it's game over for the council.

I don't think there's been one but surely, misinforming LT so as to obstruct/hinder the right of appeal, with actual prejudice caused, albeit temporarily,
is enough?

Edit.
Just seen -
QUOTE (44eldred @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:44) *
the charge certificate was issued within my appeal window,

Done and dusted.


This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 13:02


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 12:51
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Schedule 1 5(2)(b) of the London local authorities act 2003


Charge certificates
5
(1)
Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)
The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—
(a)
where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;
(b)
where such representations are made and a notice of rejection is served by the enforcing authority and no appeal against the notice of rejection is made with the date on which the period within which an appeal could have been made expires; or
©
where there has been an unsuccessful appeal against a notice of rejection, with the date on which notice of the adjudicator’s decision is served on the appellant.
(3)
Where an appeal against a notice of rejection is made but is withdrawn before the decision of the adjudicator is made the relevant period in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 14 days beginning with the date on which the appeal is withdrawn.
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cp8759
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 13:16
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Link: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukla/2003/3/...graph/5/enacted


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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44eldred
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 14:32
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Thank you - I've added detailed information about their clusterf@ck errors and that the effect of these was that the LT was misled and my appeal was hindered, quoting the relevant legislation and adding a photo of the Charge Certificate.
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Neil B
post Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 14:36
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QUOTE (44eldred @ Tue, 22 Jan 2019 - 14:32) *
Thank you - I've added detailed information about their clusterf@ck errors and that the effect of these was that the LT was misled and my appeal was hindered, quoting the relevant legislation and adding a photo of the Charge Certificate.

Fairly certain they'll pull out - unless they're really stupid ------- oh, hang on.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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