PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

53J Experimental Traffic Order Islington, Hungerford Road, 4 x Fines worth £260 (or more)
Srav22ros
post Sun, 11 Apr 2021 - 11:51
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 11 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,230



Hi lovely people,

I've received not one...but 4 PCNs for 53J under Islington's brand new School Streets scheme. I plan to challenge it as follows. I know you've reviewed a few of these so would be good to have any pointers where people have had recent success. As far as I can make out they seemed to have updated their letters /process so it seems watertight on some of the more basic timing and language issues others have successfully challenged on. My angles will be improper advanced public information and signage.

Let me know if you spot anything - planning to appeal ASAP as I've already exceeded 14 days for two of them.

Here are the images of the letters. Couldn't upload them using the forum software. https://drive.google.com/drive/u/2/folders/...kCTitOXigr4mVj5

----------

Sunday 11th April

Dear Islington Council,

My name is xxx, of xxxxx. I was surprised to find four Penalty Charge Notices (two dated 26th March and two dated 31st March) on my return home today 11th April, after more than two weeks away. Please accept the below representations on behalf of the four alleged contraventions, with my apologies that two of them exceed the stated 14 day period, due to circumstances beyond my control.

All regarding the same alleged contravention of “Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone" at Hungerford Road [NB] [By Camera IS0065] [Zone D]. The vehicle registration is AO15 AOE and I am the registered keeper and owner. The four alleged incidents took place on the following dates:

17th March:
PCN Number xxxxx at 15.18

22nd March:
PCN Number xxx at 15.18

24th March:
PCN Number xxxx at 09.04
PCN Number xxxxx at 15.20

My reasons for challenging this PCN are explained below:

Inadequate information provided to local residents in advance of experimental traffic orders

The council has a duty to consult inform residents about road changes in the most accessible way. Although ‘experimental’ orders permit Councils to postpone consultation (which itself the subject of an ongoing legal challenge), the need for clear and accessible information ahead of changes still applies. I did not receive a leaflet or see any notification of the changes posted in the local area or local media. I only learned of the existence of experimental traffic orders in Islington by googling the specific code and street name on my PCN. I found this letter published on the council’s website and this FAQ sheet. This information would have been very helpful had I registered parking permit holders in the local area received it through the post in advance of the measures. How are residents expected to have come across a notification of these changes?



Could you please provide me with details of the measures taken to inform local residents in advance of these experimental traffic orders coming into force - specifically this one in Hungerford road?

Unclear or inadequate signage

The letter indicated that the school streets scheme was live from January 2021. But schools only formally opened in March and the scheme is supposed to be closed (with signed not visible) during school holidays. Can you tell me exactly when the measures are and are not in force? And can you confirm what signage or information was erected in the local area to provide advance warning of the restrictions?

The letter also indicates that temporary advance warning signs will be erected ahead of the scheme going live. I traveled down York way frequently in February and did to see any such notices. Can you confirm whether this happened?

As such the only signage that indicates the road closure and the restricted times at the entrance to Hungerford road (which are not clearly visible in photographs provided) cannot possibly be read, processed, and corrective action taken by a driver travelling up to 20mph exiting the busy and fast moving traffic from York way, without impeding that traffic and becoming a hazard to cars and pedestrians.

To be clear, I am not opposed to the intention behind the order but the way it has been carried out with inadequate information and public consultation. The only reason I know about the restrictions at all is from the letter. The PCN itself and the evidence provided offer, offer insufficient clarity and evidence of the contravention because the times on the advance warning sign are not clearly visible.

Insufficient photographic evidence for PCN Number xxxxxx at 15.18 22nd March

The photographs provided for this PCN do not clearly indicate the vehicle AO15AOE. The number plate is not visible in the pictures provided (albeit there is a separate screenshot, which could have been taken from the other PCNs). Please provide evidence that the vehicle in question is the same registration AO15AOE.

--------

This post has been edited by Srav22ros: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 - 06:33
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
2 Pages V  < 1 2  
Start new topic
Replies (20 - 36)
Advertisement
post Sun, 11 Apr 2021 - 11:51
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 09:55
Post #21


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 26,655
Joined: 6 Nov 2014
Member No.: 74,048



QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 03:13) *
Interesting mix of opinions for the OP to judge from.

Too new for any adjudication results yet.


True but i have this one that lends support to Roy's view

2190256140

This vehicle on the council's case failed to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone. Upon the appellant raising the issue of signage he commenting upon the amount of signs that are posted at the entrance to this road. There are no less than 7 signs posted at this street's entrance including those informing motorists of this restriction. That to my mind amounts to signage overload. The motorist is expected to read all of this signage on passing it. I cannot see how that can be done noting the plethora of information shown thereon. I am not satisfied for that reason that this restriction is clearly signed and I find that the contravention has not therefore been proved.


--------------------
All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Srav22ros
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 19:34
Post #22


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 11 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,230



Thanks all!

Very helpful feedback - I seem to have divided the group. While I agree with Ryan and Roy the signage is a bit bonkers (hence why I missed it 4 times!) I do think I have a harder case to argue against four separate infringements. I like the suggestion of paying one. Ever a fence sitter, I'm hedging my bets and going for both.

Here's what I'll send first thing tomorrow. Any final feedback on wording welcome.

Your support has been invaluable! Cheers all.

------

Dear Sir/Madam,

I was mortified to find four Penalty Charge Notices (two dated 26th March and two dated 31st March) on my return home today 11th April, after more than two weeks away. Please accept the below representations on behalf of the four alleged contraventions. All PCNs concerned the same alleged contravention of “Failing to comply with a restriction on vehicles entering a pedestrian zone" at Hungerford Road [NB] [By Camera IS0065] [Zone D]. The vehicle registration is AO15 AOE and I am the registered keeper and owner. The four alleged incidents took place on the following dates:

17th March:
PCN Number IZ17497567 at 15.18

22nd March:
PCN Number IZ17509961 at 15.18

24th March:
PCN Number IZ17533795 at 09.04
PCN Number IZ17534426 at 15.20


I would like to challenge the PCNs on the grounds that the Local Authority failed to provide the driver with clear signage and adequate warning of the restriction.

Inadequate advance warning

I was driving on York Way and upon reaching the traffic lights I turned left onto Hungerford Road, however, as can be seen in my evidence attached there’s inadequate warning signage on York Way for drivers turning left where the restriction begins. Furthermore, the traffic lights at the junction of York Way/Hungerford Road are devoid of a No Left Turn symbol which would be crucial to notify drivers about the restriction in the absence of clearly visible ‘road closure’ signage.

Advanced warning should be provided to motorists for restrictions beginning at road junctions or side roads as outlined under point 5.1.3. in Chapter 3 of The Traffic Signs Manual:
“Advance warning of certain restrictions may be given by incorporating the prohibitory sign into direction signs or advance direction signs as shown in Figure 5‐1 (see also Chapter 7). These are not a substitute for the terminal signs that indicate the start of the restriction. Unless the restriction begins at the junction, either on the main road or on the side road, a distance plate should be included so that drivers can judge whether they can reach a particular property or destination before reaching the restriction. Exception plates may be included on these signs in accordance with S12‐20‐45.”

Inadequate terminal signage

When turning left into the restriction on Hungerford Road, the pedestrian zone signage is facing towards the camera and not the oncoming traffic and is not clearly visible by oncoming traffic, therefore it’s only encountered once the driver is on top of the restriction. At this point, the driver has no time to process the specific restrictions on the new signage, which is overshadowed by the much larger and familiar ‘controlled zone sign/ 20mph’ signage. The matter is exacerbated by the specific prescribed timings on the restriction and the signage placement which now lies outside the driver’s peripheral vision. The council cannot reasonably expect drivers turning left to process this new restriction (and note the specific times) at up to 20mph with no fewer than 7 separate signs to absorb, including the directions to ‘Holloway’, and inadequate advance warning. I do not believe the fines can reasonably be upheld under these circumstances when the Local Authority has failed to give the driver adequate warning.

On these grounds, I request that the Council cancel the PCNs. I also request the council install appropriate warning signage for drivers turning left at this location. While I maintain that the inadequate signage undermines the effective enforcement of the restriction, I do recognise, and support, the stated intention behind this new experimental traffic order: to reduce pollution and increase safety for school children. I have therefore paid one of the fines as a gesture of goodwill, which I hope you will see as mitigating evidence in my appeal.

Warm regards,
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 20:00
Post #23


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



Do you know there is no advance warning?

I'd say the signs are angled to face oncoming traffic in the left lane in York Way (it's a one way street).

A no left turn sign is a good point but would need to be qualified with times and exemptions (cyclists obviously).

They are to blame for the 20mph clutter as you are already in a 20mph area on York Way.

The Holloway sign is a good point.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryan 93
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 20:01
Post #24


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 963
Joined: 14 Jul 2020
Member No.: 109,137



You have manipulated some of my suggestions, I don’t recall using the term “road closure”. Any reps I provided should be used or discarded entirely.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Srav22ros
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 20:30
Post #25


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 11 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,230



I believe there is a small folded blank grey sign on the left between the first and second lights on York way - which I presume is a folded ‘road closed ahead’ sign. But I can’t be sure because it was closed when I went past this week. There was a flimsy catch with no lock so I also can’t be sure it was open on the days in question.

Either way I’m arguing that it was inadequate, rather than not present. But can remove if this undermines the central signage challenge?

This post has been edited by Srav22ros: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 20:31
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Ryan 93
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 20:51
Post #26


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 963
Joined: 14 Jul 2020
Member No.: 109,137



The angled sign with the prescribed timings in small print would be insufficient for drivers turning left; not scientifically possible to digest such technical details in this circumstance.

Also the folded road closure sign is joke, where in TSRGD does it permit folded obscured warning signage.

If I were challenging this penalty I would supply photos of the warning signage in question, highlighting its location on York Way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Srav22ros
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 21:26
Post #27


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 14
Joined: 11 Apr 2021
Member No.: 112,230



Good point.

I've added the following para under the quoted Manual to conclude the first line of argument.

On inspection of the location after the event, I was not able to identify advance warning signage, only a folded grey sign with a flimsy catch and no lock (in attached photos). As a result, the Council cannot maintain with certainty that adequate advance warning of this restriction has been provided (or even that the signage provided was open and fully visible on the days in question.)

Thanks again.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 21:44
Post #28


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (Srav22ros @ Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 22:26) *
On inspection of the location after the event, I was not able to identify advance warning signage, only a folded grey sign


And the main signs are also folded shut - it's the Easter holidays. So the advance sign is there and will no doubt be cited by the council.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Neil B
post Tue, 13 Apr 2021 - 22:21
Post #29


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 29,268
Joined: 16 Jan 2008
Member No.: 16,671



Which one have you paid?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Thu, 15 Apr 2021 - 14:50
Post #30


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 12 Apr 2021 - 21:56) *
Let's say at 20mph, which is the speed limit, you failed to take in the full detail on a first occasion. What do you do - do you look it up before going there again or do you just ignore it and hope for the best on multiple trips?

And let's not forget, if the speed limit is 20 that is the absolute maximum you may drive at in the most ideal of circumstances. A competent and careful driver is expected to adapt their speed to the circumstances, especially at junctions and where there are many signs to take in.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 15 Apr 2021 - 14:54
Post #31


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 15 Apr 2021 - 15:50) *
QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 12 Apr 2021 - 21:56) *
Let's say at 20mph, which is the speed limit, you failed to take in the full detail on a first occasion. What do you do - do you look it up before going there again or do you just ignore it and hope for the best on multiple trips?

And let's not forget, if the speed limit is 20 that is the absolute maximum you may drive at in the most ideal of circumstances. A competent and careful driver is expected to adapt their speed to the circumstances, especially at junctions and where there are many signs to take in.


I see the main problem with these new restrictions is that people are just taken by surprise the first time at least. When you know about them I can't see you would miss them in future and if you do then there may well be a real issue with the signage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mitchyb
post Wed, 30 Jun 2021 - 19:48
Post #32


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 30 Jun 2021
Member No.: 113,229



Hi All,

Was there any resolution with this case?

I've just received a PCN from the same spot and had no idea I'd transgressed.

Keen to hear if any appeal was upheld.

Thank you smile.gif

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John U.K.
post Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 11:35
Post #33


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 4,308
Joined: 9 May 2014
Member No.: 70,515



QUOTE (mitchyb @ Wed, 30 Jun 2021 - 20:48) *
Hi All,
Was there any resolution with this case?
I've just received a PCN from the same spot and had no idea I'd transgressed.
Keen to hear if any appeal was upheld.
Thank you smile.gif


You need to start your own thread and post there all sides of your PCN, any council pictures and a link to the GSV location.

Redact personal details on PCN and leave everything else in.

Space on this forum very limited, so use external hosting site such as https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/ and put the links or better still the BBcodes in your post.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mitchyb
post Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 15:16
Post #34


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 30 Jun 2021
Member No.: 113,229



QUOTE (John U.K. @ Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 12:35) *
QUOTE (mitchyb @ Wed, 30 Jun 2021 - 20:48) *
Hi All,
Was there any resolution with this case?
I've just received a PCN from the same spot and had no idea I'd transgressed.
Keen to hear if any appeal was upheld.
Thank you smile.gif


You need to start your own thread and post there all sides of your PCN, any council pictures and a link to the GSV location.

Redact personal details on PCN and leave everything else in.

Space on this forum very limited, so use external hosting site such as https://imgbb.com/ or https://imgur.com/ and put the links or better still the BBcodes in your post.



Hi John,

Thanks for the reply.

Before submitting a request for help, I thought I'd check whether this appeal had achieved any success or if it had been denied as the outcome would likely affect my next course of action.

Cheers smile.gif

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
stamfordman
post Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 15:23
Post #35


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 23,582
Joined: 12 Feb 2013
From: London
Member No.: 59,924



QUOTE (mitchyb @ Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 16:16) *
Before submitting a request for help, I thought I'd check whether this appeal had achieved any success or if it had been denied as the outcome would likely affect my next course of action.


We don't know. You could PM the person who started this thread. Also look at the London Tribunals register to see if any appeals decided at this location. But it's quite new so appeals may not have worked their way through yet.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 15:24
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
mitchyb
post Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 16:19
Post #36


New Member


Group: Members
Posts: 3
Joined: 30 Jun 2021
Member No.: 113,229



QUOTE (stamfordman @ Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 16:23) *
QUOTE (mitchyb @ Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 16:16) *
Before submitting a request for help, I thought I'd check whether this appeal had achieved any success or if it had been denied as the outcome would likely affect my next course of action.


We don't know. You could PM the person who started this thread. Also look at the London Tribunals register to see if any appeals decided at this location. But it's quite new so appeals may not have worked their way through yet.



Thank you, have messaged the OP
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Gert
post Thu, 1 Jul 2021 - 16:55
Post #37


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 838
Joined: 15 May 2019
Member No.: 103,884



Never pay a PCN and challenge the others separately. Challenge them all in one go or risk paying another one in the list you have submitted reps on.

Drivers are looking but don't always see changed signage until the PCNs are already printing out. There was an advance sign, however crappy. Best you can hope for is someone letting you off bar the first one that you write in about.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V  < 1 2
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 22:40
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here