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PCN for Bus Lane Bristol
sweet sensation
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 11:42
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Hi, I am new to this forum and have recently received a PCN for Being in a bus lane on a Sunday! I don't know the road and was just turning my van around. There were no other vehicles on the road, let alone buses.

I did not pay attention to any warning signs as it was a Sunday on a quiet road I did not think the bus lane would be enforceable! I have asked on a local group on facebook and apparently no one gets off this bus lane fine. I want to see if I can prove them wrong!

For some reason I am really struggling to upload the pics. I will keep trying to add to this post but in the meantime can I appeal against this?

Thanks











Edit: Date of posting - 30/4/2018
Date of detection - 22/4/2018 12:40:25


This post has been edited by sweet sensation: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 12:27
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post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 11:42
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stamfordman
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 11:44
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Use a site such as Imgur or Flickr for pics. Post the video too.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 11:44
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We would like to prove them wrong also, but best start with the basics.

post

The PCN all pages

A GSV link

and get and post the video


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sweet sensation
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 12:02
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I can post links, hope thats ok? Think Ive sussed it!!

I don't have a video, this is all I have. Ive logged in online and it isn't very helpful with doing appeals but lots of big buttons to pay rolleyes.gif

This post has been edited by sweet sensation: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 12:09
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sweet sensation
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 12:17
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I hope Ive done this correctly. Really struggled sorting the pics
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stamfordman
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 12:19
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A winning case. Repost the PCN with all dates in.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114780
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sweet sensation
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 12:46
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 13:19) *
A winning case. Repost the PCN with all dates in.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114780



Yes I read that one, but it seems my circumstances are different as apparently the signs are there saying its a 24/7 bus lane and its not in exactly the same place. I will go and check the signs asap. Just home ill today so thought id be productive with this fine!


Whats a GSV link?

So initially what should I do? This is what it says online:

Skip to Content
[LOGO]
bristol.gov.uk
Make a Formal Representation:
If you would like to make a formal representation against the issue of this Penalty Charge Notice/Notice to Owner please fill in the form below:
Step 1: Enter your details and your formal representation
Step 2: Upload supplementary evidences (optional)
Step 3: Confirm all information you provided and submit
For further information on about the grounds on which a formal representation may be made are contained within the Penalty Charge Notice/Notice to Owner sent to you. Further information can be found at www.bristol.gov.uk/parking.


PCN number:

Vehicle Registration:

I am: *

Title: *

First name: *

Surname: *

Telephone:

Email: *

Address line 1: *

Address line 2:

Town: *

County: *

Post code: *


Please select your grounds for Representation:

I was not the hirer of the vehicle at the date and time of the offence/No hire agreement

The alleged contravention did not occur.

The circumstances leading to the issue of the PCN are subject to criminal proceedings or a Fixed Penalty Notice (FPN) has been issued.

I was not the owner of the vehicle in question at the date and time of detection. (Please type the details of the previous owner or the new owner in the text entry box below if this information known to you).

I was the registered keeper of the vehicle in question on the date and time of the detection, however,
• We are a hire company and the hirer had signed a statement accepting liability. (Please attach the copy of a signed liability agreement)
• The vehicle was being kept by a vehicle trader at the date and time of the Detection.
• The vehicle was being used without my consent at the date and time of the Detection.
(Please type the details of the previous owner or the new owner in the text entry box below if this information known to you)


The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

Other Grounds.

Please enter details of your Representation below (3000 characters max): *


Technically its in my (recently) ex husbands name, so I could just leave it for him to sort!! But I'm not that evil and I want to keep the van!!

QUOTE (stamfordman @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 13:19) *
A winning case. Repost the PCN with all dates in.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=114780


Sorry Ive edited my original post to include the dates
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Mad Mick V
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 13:08
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If we still have the 0870 number for payment on the form it's a winner IMO.

Let's be clear on the phone surcharge for the 0870 number. Like it says it is in two parts----the access charge payable to the phone company which may be 55p per minute for mobiles and 12p per minute from landlines. The service charge of 2p per minute payable to the Council.

So a 10 minute mobile call to pay your PCN is likely to cost £5.70 from a mobile but the Council only pockets 20p BUT that 20p is the silver bullet.

Any adjudicator must ask why this Council did not offer a free-phone number or a bog standard landline. The system in use doesn't aid the customer so there can only be one conclusion----they're making money from the customer and probably from the phone company.

Mick

This post has been edited by Mad Mick V: Tue, 8 May 2018 - 13:12
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sweet sensation
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 13:53
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 14:08) *
If we still have the 0870 number for payment on the form it's a winner IMO.

Let's be clear on the phone surcharge for the 0870 number. Like it says it is in two parts----the access charge payable to the phone company which may be 55p per minute for mobiles and 12p per minute from landlines. The service charge of 2p per minute payable to the Council.

So a 10 minute mobile call to pay your PCN is likely to cost £5.70 from a mobile but the Council only pockets 20p BUT that 20p is the silver bullet.

Any adjudicator must ask why this Council did not offer a free-phone number or a bog standard landline. The system in use doesn't aid the customer so there can only be one conclusion----they're making money from the customer and probably from the phone company.

Mick



Ok thanks for the info. So I can appeal against that fact alone? Apart from the fact that there's a bus lane on a quiet road on a Sunday which seems ridiculous!? So to start the ball rolling what do I need to do online?

Which one of these boxes do I tick? Also should I go and take pics of the signs?

"The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

Other Grounds."

Thanks
Sarah
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 14:08
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QUOTE (sweet sensation @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 14:53) *
QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 14:08) *
If we still have the 0870 number for payment on the form it's a winner IMO.

Let's be clear on the phone surcharge for the 0870 number. Like it says it is in two parts----the access charge payable to the phone company which may be 55p per minute for mobiles and 12p per minute from landlines. The service charge of 2p per minute payable to the Council.

So a 10 minute mobile call to pay your PCN is likely to cost £5.70 from a mobile but the Council only pockets 20p BUT that 20p is the silver bullet.

Any adjudicator must ask why this Council did not offer a free-phone number or a bog standard landline. The system in use doesn't aid the customer so there can only be one conclusion----they're making money from the customer and probably from the phone company.

Mick



Ok thanks for the info. So I can appeal against that fact alone? Apart from the fact that there's a bus lane on a quiet road on a Sunday which seems ridiculous!? So to start the ball rolling what do I need to do online?

Which one of these boxes do I tick? Also should I go and take pics of the signs?

"The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

Other Grounds."

Thanks
Sarah


Slow down a bit, you have plenty of time. the adjudicator was wrong on a lot of things. we say misdirected themselves as to the law, but the point found on was failing to consider, so lets give the council every chance to commit the same mistake. a many faceted representation would be my plan


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sweet sensation
post Tue, 8 May 2018 - 14:51
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Tue, 8 May 2018 - 15:08) *
Slow down a bit, you have plenty of time. the adjudicator was wrong on a lot of things. we say misdirected themselves as to the law, but the point found on was failing to consider, so lets give the council every chance to commit the same mistake. a many faceted representation would be my plan



Sorry, I'm just keen to sort it. Don't like things hanging over me or I'm likely to forget.
I'm currently going through a difficult separation and my ex is wanting to sell the van (which has been predominately mine for the past 2 years), so I don't want things like this stopping me getting it.
I appreciate your advice though and will do whatever I need to not pay this ridiculous fine!! biggrin.gif

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sweet sensation
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 15:11
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Pastmybest - What do I need to do next? Wait? If so, what am I waiting for? Or should I put an appeal in online now?

Thanks
Sarah
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PASTMYBEST
post Wed, 9 May 2018 - 17:49
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QUOTE (sweet sensation @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 16:11) *
Pastmybest - What do I need to do next? Wait? If so, what am I waiting for? Or should I put an appeal in online now?

Thanks
Sarah


What would you appeal on? give us a bit of time to put things together for you


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sweet sensation
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 16:03
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 18:49) *
QUOTE (sweet sensation @ Wed, 9 May 2018 - 16:11) *
Pastmybest - What do I need to do next? Wait? If so, what am I waiting for? Or should I put an appeal in online now?

Thanks
Sarah


What would you appeal on? give us a bit of time to put things together for you



Ok, sorry I just thought it would be an idea to let them now I am appealing? I was going to suggest saying why there is a bus lane on a Sunday??! But that's probably not good enough is it!!? laugh.gif

Ill hang on, you know what you're talking about in regards to this, I don't!!
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cp8759
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 16:31
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QUOTE (sweet sensation @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 17:03) *
Ok, sorry I just thought it would be an idea to let them now I am appealing? I was going to suggest saying why there is a bus lane on a Sunday??! But that's probably not good enough is it!!? laugh.gif

Don't even go there, the council is well within its powers to impose a bus lane restriction on a Sunday. The 2p charge to call the 0870 number seems the best bet at the moment.


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PASTMYBEST
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 16:36
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 17:31) *
QUOTE (sweet sensation @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 17:03) *
Ok, sorry I just thought it would be an idea to let them now I am appealing? I was going to suggest saying why there is a bus lane on a Sunday??! But that's probably not good enough is it!!? laugh.gif

Don't even go there, the council is well within its powers to impose a bus lane restriction on a Sunday. The 2p charge to call the 0870 number seems the best bet at the moment.


yes it does, but i want to rebut the arguments made for it by the adjudicator in the case posted by stamf. As I said in that thread i think she was completely out of order to disregard/disagree with the high court


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cp8759
post Thu, 10 May 2018 - 20:26
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Thu, 10 May 2018 - 17:36) *
yes it does, but i want to rebut the arguments made for it by the adjudicator in the case posted by stamf. As I said in that thread i think she was completely out of order to disregard/disagree with the high court

From reading that thread I get the distinct impression the adjudicator didn't appreciate the council pockets that money and therefore did not make the correct finding of fact, I don't think it's a question of her disregarding the High Court decision. We don't have a transcript but I suspect the adjudicator's attention was not sufficiently drawn to the fact that the council gets to pocket the 2p per minute. I'm making an FOI request to see how much money they make out of it, it might help.


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PASTMYBEST
post Sat, 12 May 2018 - 11:12
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Bump to remind myself


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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 15 May 2018 - 21:07
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Sorry its taken a bit longer than planned but make your representations along these lines. The idea is to get all points out in but not to do the councils work for them. If they fail to respond to any of the points, they fail to comply with the regulations and give a further ground for the adjudicator to cancel on

1;- The contravention did not occur.

The advanced signage and the signage in situ at the restriction fail to give adequate notice contrary to The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 regulation 18

Points 2 and 3 stand as collateral challenges against the validity of the PCN.

2:- the PCN uses the term within 28 days of the date of the notice being served. Legal convention has it that the use of the term within in describing the period means that counting starts on the next day. This would add an extra day to the period allowed by regulation

This has been found to be non compliant by the high court. [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin)

3:- The PCN misstates and truncates my rights under regulation 8(5)(n)(i) an(ii) and 8(6)

point 4 stands under the ground of:- The penalty charge exceeded the amount applicable in the circumstances of the case.

Within the PCN payment by phone is said to incur a surcharge. This has been ruled upon in the high court and found to be illegal See [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin)

for any one or all of these reasons this PCN must be cancelled.


This is fine for the representation to the council, at appeal we will add meat to the bones of the atguments, but its not for us or you to do the councils job for them


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sweet sensation
post Thu, 17 May 2018 - 15:45
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Great thank you so much biggrin.gif

So in the appeal box I put this:

"1:- The contravention did not occur.

The advanced signage and the signage in situ at the restriction fail to give adequate notice contrary to The Local Authorities' Traffic Orders (Procedure) (England and Wales) Regulations 1996 regulation 18

2:- the PCN uses the term within 28 days of the date of the notice being served. Legal convention has it that the use of the term within in describing the period means that counting starts on the next day. This would add an extra day to the period allowed by regulation

This has been found to be non compliant by the high court. [2006] EWHC 2357 (Admin)

3:- The PCN misstates and truncates my rights under regulation 8(5)(n)(i) an(ii) and 8(6)

4:- Within the PCN payment by phone is said to incur a surcharge. This has been ruled upon in the high court and found to be illegal See [2011] EWHC 295 (Admin)

for any one or all of these reasons this PCN must be cancelled."

Or is that giving them too much information right now?
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