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PCN received due to not updating RingGo registration
Syntax_error
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 12:35
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I recently received a PCN from my local council (London Borough of Hounslow) after it transpires that I had forgotten to update my registration on the RingGo app.

I had previously changed the registration on my Audi to a personalised number plate but forgot to update the registration on the app (the car description was the same however (Black Audi)). Unbelievably, I had parked in various on-street parking bays in a few different council areas all without receiving any PCNs for at least a few months. It was only after appealing the PCN for what I thought was an error with their database (and providing screenshots of the text message confirmation and VAT receipt) that I realised that it was due to my error that the PCN was issued. Since then the two week discounted fine period has elapsed.

I read a similar post from a member who received a PCN for having a different car saved on the app but this was the same car but a different registration. I'm not sure what the outcome was but several mitigations were posted that I would be interested to know whether I would be able to use them in my defence. I don't know how much detail the attendants have when on their rounds checking the RingGo payees but surely it must be more than just a registration. I accept that with the information on their terminals they were correct to issue the PCN but surely common sense should come into it.

Any insight and help would be gratefully received.
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post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 12:35
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stamfordman
post Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 12:40
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Some councils will forgive a first error with a pay by phone app. Don't know about Hounslow but encouragingly they do say in their policy:

'The Department of Transport guidance advises that “under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionally and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest”.'

As you paid and there is no loss, you can draw their attention to this in a polite challenge. Draft something and post here first.

https://democraticservices.hounslow.gov.uk/...inal%20V3-0.pdf

And no, the CEOs can only check the VRM.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Wed, 12 Jun 2019 - 12:41
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Syntax_error
post Fri, 14 Jun 2019 - 10:06
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Thanks for the info. I'm now waiting for their Notice to Owner before taking this matter further. I'll draft my reply in due course.

Thanks again.
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Syntax_error
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 15:15
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So the NTO has arrived and my response looks like this. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Dear LBH,

I write to you to provide you with mitigating circumstances regarding the above PCN received on 28/05/2019 at Chiswick Common Road and reasons why I believe this PCN should be cancelled.

I drive a black Audi SQ5. I bought this vehicle in September 2018 with the registration GF15 ***. In March 2019 I transferred my personalised number plate (M1* ***) to the car and updated the relevant documents (see attached V5C jpeg). I use the RingGo app on my phone whenever possible and have parked my car in many locations both in Richmond and Hounslow London boroughs with no issues (see attached RingGo receipt screenshots).

I parked my car at about 15:40 at the location specified on the said date and paid using the RingGo app on my mobile phone as I had done on numerous occasions before. I paid £8.80 for three and a half hours. This took me past the time limit for that day so the time ran over until the next morning (I was only planning to park there until about 19:45). I left my car and received a notification from RingGo to confirm my parking session and a text message confirmation (see attached screenshots). I met my colleague who informed me that a parking attendant had issued me a parking ticket a few minutes ago near his own car. He said that he pleaded with him, tried to convince him that I would not have neglected to pay for parking, and that if he had had any change would have tried to cover my parking session in part, to give me time to pay. Unfortunately, the parking attendant checked his portable unit and told my friend that the registration of my parked car did not appear on his system and that a PCN had to be issued. All this was relayed to me after the incident and far from the location of my car, and as I had received confirmation of my parking session I was sure that there was a mistake and continued my day. I returned to my car later and found the PCN and still, having had a receipt for my session was prepared to appeal, assuming there was some kind of error. I wrote my appeal a few days later and assumed that this PCN would be cancelled. Of course, it was only after I received the appeal rejection and the reasons for it that I realised what had happened…

Although I updated all my official documents when I changed my registration, I forgot to update the RingGo app. Although the car description was the same (“black Audi”), the registration on the account was still GF15 ***. I was shocked; not just because I had forgotten, but also it dawned on me how many times I had parked with the wrong registration on the account with no recourse. I couldn’t believe it.

I understand that the parking attendant was within his rights to issue the PCN given the information at the scene, but I believe that having paid for the car that was parked there and caused no loss of revenue would make a penalty of over £100 totally disproportionate. I also refer to the London Borough of Hounslow’s own Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy which states that “The Department of Transport guidance advises that “under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionally and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest”.”

I was not attempting to park illegally or to avoid paying for my parking session as you can see from my evidence. I simply forgot to update the details on the RingGo account. I cannot explain why I had not received any PCNs during those months where my registration was wrong; I like to think that maybe the fact that those attendants saw a black Audi and acknowledged that there may be an error and gave me the benefit of the doubt. I cannot prove this of course, but it’s quite unbelievable to have not received any PCNs for all that time.

One other point is that the appeal letter mentioned both my current registration AND the previous registration (on the RingGo app account). If the attendant was aware that a black Audi registration GF15 *** had paid for a parking session at the same time as a black Audi registration M1* *** would it not stand to reason that it could be reasonable to assume that it could be the same car and that there may be a simple error? Discretion could have been applied in this case, and it may explain why I didn’t receive PCNs for my other parking sessions with the wrong registration.

Incidentally, since this incident, the RingGo app has been updated. At the time, the app opened and the registration was displayed at the top followed by a prompt to choose the duration of the parking session. Now, the registration has a down arrow prompting the user to change the registration if necessary before moving down the screen to choose the duration.

I enclose screenshots and jpegs of my V5C, recent parking sessions, receipt for the parking session in question.

I am more than willing to take this to the adjudicator to plead my case and feel confident that if my appeal is unsuccessful here, common sense will prevail and the fine will be cancelled. This was simply a clerical error and not an attempt to circumvent any parking fees.

Yours sincerely,

***
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cp8759
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 16:22
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What you're arguing is mitigation, rather than a statutory ground of appeal. The adjudicator has no legal powers to allow an appeal on the basis of mitigation (or, to use your language, common sense). Threatening to go to the tribunal won't help and could only be counter-productive so I would remove all mention of it.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Incandescent
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 20:31
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 17:22) *
What you're arguing is mitigation, rather than a statutory ground of appeal. The adjudicator has no legal powers to allow an appeal on the basis of mitigation (or, to use your language, common sense). Threatening to go to the tribunal won't help and could only be counter-productive so I would remove all mention of it.

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stamfordman
post Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 21:15
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That's far too long - needs trimming.
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Syntax_error
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 15:29
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Sat, 20 Jul 2019 - 17:22) *
What you're arguing is mitigation, rather than a statutory ground of appeal. The adjudicator has no legal powers to allow an appeal on the basis of mitigation (or, to use your language, common sense). Threatening to go to the tribunal won't help and could only be counter-productive so I would remove all mention of it.



Dear LBH,

I write to you to provide you with mitigating circumstances regarding the above PCN received on 28/05/2019 at Chiswick Common Road.

I parked my vehicle and paid the correct amount for the session. Unfortunately, I neglected to update my registration details on the RingGo app and so the parking attendant saw no record of my vehicle on his handheld device and quite rightly issued a PCN. However, I had no intention to avoid paying for the vehicle that I parked and, at the time of parking, was unaware of my error. As soon as I realised that my registration was wrong on the app I corrected it.

I understand that the parking attendant was within his rights to issue the PCN given the information at the scene, but I did pay for the parking session for the car that I parked and caused no loss of revenue. I feel that a penalty of over £100 is totally disproportionate for what amounts to a clerical error. I also refer to the London Borough of Hounslow’s own Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy which states that “The Department of Transport guidance advises that “under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionally and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest”.”

I enclose screenshots and jpegs of my V5C, recent parking sessions, receipt for the parking session in question.

Yours sincerely,




Is this better? Any amendments would be gratefully received.
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stamfordman
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 15:53
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Dear LBH,

I am making representations for PCN xxxxxx on the grounds that I made an honest error with the Ringgo pay to park app by paying for the wrong car registration. I had just forgotten to update it to my new car, and of course accept that the PCN was correctly served. But as I had paid the correct amount for the parking session at the time of the PCN I would ask you kindly to exercise discretion on this first occasion I have made such an error.

I see your Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy states that “The Department of Transport guidance advises that “under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionally and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest”. I do hope that this falls within your policy and I have updated the details on Ringgo so this cannot occur again.

I enclose screenshots and jpegs of my V5C, recent parking sessions, receipt for the parking session in question, and look forward to your positive reply.

Yours sincerely,
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Syntax_error
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 16:58
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 16:53) *
Dear LBH,

I am making representations for PCN xxxxxx on the grounds that I made an honest error with the Ringgo pay to park app by paying for the wrong car registration. I had just forgotten to update it to my new car, and of course accept that the PCN was correctly served. But as I had paid the correct amount for the parking session at the time of the PCN I would ask you kindly to exercise discretion on this first occasion I have made such an error.

I see your Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy states that “The Department of Transport guidance advises that “under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionally and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest”. I do hope that this falls within your policy and I have updated the details on Ringgo so this cannot occur again.

I enclose screenshots and jpegs of my V5C, recent parking sessions, receipt for the parking session in question, and look forward to your positive reply.

Yours sincerely,


Stamfordman I thank you. I appreciate your help.
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Syntax_error
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 17:11
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Incidentally, is it actually necessary for me to provide any of those documents I was prepared to offer? Is it realistically going to help my cause? The V5C only proves that the registration is correct. The number plate was changed in March and I only have the receipt from the car purchase last year. I'm not sire what this would actually prove when the facts are already clear from the fact that the council are aware that there was a discrepancy as they mentioned both the current and previous registrations on their rejection letter.


This post has been edited by Syntax_error: Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 17:11
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stamfordman
post Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 18:39
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I hadn't spotted that you'd already been rejected - you'd better post this rejection.
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Syntax_error
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 20:18
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QUOTE (stamfordman @ Mon, 22 Jul 2019 - 19:39) *
I hadn't spotted that you'd already been rejected - you'd better post this rejection.


The initial rejection letter is below. Remember, I didn't know the reason for the PCN at this time as I was unaware that I had forgotten to update the registration. On another note, how did the council know of my original number plate? I thought the only information they had on their handheld devices was whether a registration, when entered, had been paid for via the RingGo app.

Thank you for writing to us regarding the above Penalty Charge Notice.
We have carefully considered what you say but we have decided not to cancel your Penalty
Charge Notice.
There are signs where you parked that explain that the bay you parked in is for:
• people with a permit; or
• people with a Pay & Display ticket; or
• people paying to park by phone or online. The information explains how to do this.
You were given a Penalty Charge Notice because you did not have a permit or Pay & Display
ticket that was both valid and clearly displayed, and the Civil Enforcement Officer's handheld
computer showed no valid period bought by phone or online. Even if you have a permit or Pay
& Display ticket, you have to display it so that a Civil Enforcement Officer can see all its details.
It seems you were using a different vehicle (M15***) from the one you had set up the parking
period for by phone or online (GF15***). So, when the Civil Enforcement Officer typed the
registration number of the parked vehicle into their handheld computer, your transaction would
not have appeared....

...Yours sincerely
Correspondence Team
On behalf of the London Borough of Hounslow
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stamfordman
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 20:31
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QUOTE (Syntax_error @ Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 21:18) *
On another note, how did the council know of my or

It seems you were using a different vehicle (M15***) from the one you had set up the parking
period for by phone or online (GF15***). So, when the Civil Enforcement Officer typed the
registration number of the parked vehicle into their handheld computer, your transaction would
not have appeared....


That they spotted the mistake does not auger well for discretion but nothing to lose by going for it. I presume you submitted a receipt with the old reg?


Dear LBH,

Further to my initial challenge, I am making representations for PCN xxxxxx on the grounds that I made an honest error with the Ringgo pay to park app by paying for the wrong car registration.

In my challenge I thought there was fault with the Ringgo app, but see now I had forgotten to update it to my new car, and of course accept that the PCN was correctly served. As you noted in your rejection, you could see I had paid for my previous car, reg xxxxx.

But as I had paid the correct amount for the parking session at the time of the PCN I would ask you kindly to exercise discretion on this first occasion I have made such an error, and as you could see I had paid for a parking session.

I see your Parking and Traffic Enforcement Policy states that “The Department of Transport guidance advises that “under general principles of public law, authorities have a duty to act fairly and proportionally and are encouraged to exercise discretion sensibly and reasonably and with due regard to the public interest”. I do hope that this falls within your policy and I have updated the details on Ringgo so this cannot occur again.

I enclose screenshots and jpegs of my V5C, recent parking sessions, receipt for the parking session in question, and look forward to your positive reply.

Yours sincerely,

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 21:08
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Syntax_error
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 03:00
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Thanks for the help. I'll keep you upraised.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 07:13
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OP, you obscure key issues with padding, you do not follow forum protocol and you are trying to constrain our analysis by posting NOTHING of any use. I think this sums it up sleep.gif !

Do not send what you've drafted yet.

Having re-read you lengthy posts, I think the following is true, but if not then pl correct:

You parked and paid the required charge in accordance with the applicable instructions i.e. by RingGo.
You have proof of this payment;
You have proof of the location;
The authority's photos place your car at this location.
In your initial challenge you did not submit proof of payment

You have not posted the PCN
You have not posted photos
You have not posted your challenge
You have not posted, as opposed to transcribed, their response
You have not posted the NTO........

and yet you think you can submit formal reps!

You must at least post the NTO, all sides and leave in all dates, times etc.

Your first post raised and then kicked into the long grass what to me is the key legal point: what is the motorist required to do before leaving their vehicle in the parking place?

Ans: to pay the parking charge.

You paid this charge.

Was it reasonable for the CEO to conclude that you had not paid? Yes. There was no ticket on display - but whether there was even a P&D option we know not because we've not seen the photos - and there was no payment matched to the VRM of the car in question.

Should the authority accept reps on the basis that you paid the charge for the car in question i.e. the 4-wheeled, black Audi of whatever model with the fluffy dice hanging from the driver's mirror? IMO, yes. As I said above, I think there is an arguable case on the basis that checking the VRM is purely administrative: it is not the key question which in my mind remains whether the parking charge was paid and can be shown to have been paid for the vehicle in the parking place.

And another point- I assume you can prove you updated your RingGo details as soon as you became aware of your error. If you can't then it must bring your whole account into question.

Anyway: the NTO first pl.

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stamfordman
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 14:45
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Think you're going OTT here HCA - this is a common case of wrong reg on Ringgo and the authority will either accept reps that remind them of their fairness duty or reject as they did at challenge stage where they surely admitted they knew.

They will though hopefully reoffer the discount if they reject. I think there isn't anything more the OP can do than send the rep I drafted.

Apart from there is a possibility of mistakes on the docs should the OP want to post these for review.
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hcandersen
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:28
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The point remains.

Was the parking charge paid for the car in the parking place? Yes.

What do they allege? That it wasn't.

At this stage, given the circumstances the OP should submit their V5C and proof of payment and make the point that the car is the same, only the VRM has changed. Mistakes happen. By the way, you could try getting DVLA to confirm what happens to VRMs which have been replaced.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 16:37
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Incandescent
post Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 21:32
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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 17:28) *
The point remains.

Was the parking charge paid for the car in the parking place? Yes.

What do they allege? That it wasn't.

At this stage, given the circumstances the OP should submit their V5C and proof of payment and make the point that the car is the same, only the VRM has changed. Mistakes happen. By the way, you could try getting DVLA to confirm what happens to VRMs which have been replaced.

They remain linked to the car like a Jaguar XJ I bought in 2010. It had had a private plate of the first owner, and I was the 2nd. The original reg. number was reinstated when the owner sold the car. I presume he then had it put on his next car.

This post has been edited by Incandescent: Wed, 24 Jul 2019 - 21:33
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