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NTO sent to outdated address, PCN and NTO have all been sent to an old address.
Solidsound
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 12:55
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Hello all,

I’m new here and have tried to look through these forums before posting so apologies if this ‘another’ one of these.
Firstly I am talking about my partner’s vehicle which I was driving on the day in question.

Timeline.
29th April 2018 completed on house and moved.
9 May 2018 - PCN issued on windscreen by Leicestershire CC (Harborough District)
Overstayed marked bay by 13 mins (observed 1433-1646) - this got lost/forgotten with aftermath of house move
12 June 2018 Notice to owner sent to old address (we did not receive this despite us collecting post from old address)
(All of the above info has been obtained by contacting council today, (7 May 2019 to find out what this is about)
27 June 2018 V5 sent to DVLA to change address
July 2018 - Still collecting post from old address no correspondence of PCN
August 2018 - V5 returned from DVLA with new address dated 31/7/2018
6 Nov 2018 - Court issued Warrant to recover unpaid debt? - sent to old address (not received by us) and no warning, summonses, or other court papers were received by us as sent to old address.
8 Nov 2018 - Debt collection handed case by court to recover.
9 Nov 2018 - Debt collection wrote to old address to recover debt.
5 Dec 2018 - Debt collection attended old address to enforce warrant.
Dec 2018 - May 2019 - Tracing agent employed to find correct address.
2 May 2019 - Tracing agent found current address (presumably from DVLA) and Debt collection wrote to us at correct address.
7 May 2019 - Letter received to new address from Debt collection agency stating enforcement process commenced with a ‘notice of enforcement’ see attached for warrant issued on 6 Nov 2018

I have today contacted the Council and given them correct address, they have suspended action for 7 days while we get forms to TEC. Spoke to TEC who have sent me T7 & T9 forms. The TEC also informed me a warrant was issued on 6 Nov 2018 to old address. I have provided them with correct address. They have said that at this stage they are just point of contact and that no action is being taken by them at this stage.
I have requested original PCN/photos from Council and awaiting response.
I have contacted Debt collection agent to explain situation. They have put case on hold until next week pending me contacting them again for further updates.

I do not contest the original PCN, with the stress of moving and my then 1 yo daughter’s birthday (today) this was forgotten about and although the V5 was sent off in a reasonable time to DVLA following our move all subsequent correspondence, including an initial letter from debt collection agents in DATe have been sent to an old address, that until July of last year the DVLA has as the correct address and until August of last year I was collecting post from.
All of the above info has been collected today form the tree different sources, Council, TEC and collection agent.

Where do I stand?
Shall I just pay the fee and walk away?
Do I pay the original PCN and challenge the additional fees added on by the Debt collection firm as they were sent to incorrect address?
Where do I stand with the warrant being sent to an old address?

Any help and guidance is greatly appreciated.
Thank you, Solidsound.

... apologies for poor spelling at times, trying to type on phone was hard work!

... apologies for poor spelling at times, trying to type on phone was hard work!
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post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 12:55
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hcandersen
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:39
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Procedurally the only options to you are to pay and walk away, pay and submit TEs or just submit TEs.

Realistically, your chances of convincing TEC that none of notices arrived and that you are not to blame are zero.

What could have happened?

a. The notices were not properly addressed due to the authority's error; or
b. The notices were not properly addressed because of DVLA's error; or
c. The notices were properly addressed but you had given DVLA the wrong address for your old address.

You have not suggested c, therefore a or b must apply, unless they were delivered and you missed them. You have not suggested that a third party had access to your mail.

So if you submit an OOT, then you must require the authority, should they oppose, to supply TEC with evidence - too often all an authority does is to merely state that they have used the correct address.

We can help draft your OOT.

Extra procedurally, you could complain to the council's 'section 151 officer', see below:

The S151 Officer plays a key role in helping the organisation balance local service needs with corporate interests whilst ensuring compliance with all financial, statutory and constitutional requirements. High standards of professional practice and governance must also be observed in discharging those duties and responsibilities on behalf of the Council and local tax payers.

According to you, the authority are knowingly demanding payment from you pursuant to an invalid warrant i.e. it does not carry the mandatory details regarding validity because it is not issued to your address.

But we need to see the notice before getting too gung-ho on this point.
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spaceman
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:22
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QUOTE (Solidsound @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:55) *
...and although the V5 was sent off in a reasonable time to DVLA following our move...


I don't think TEC, a District Judge or the authority will consider 2 months a "reasonable time" in which to submit a change of address to DVLA.

This post has been edited by spaceman: Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:28
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Solidsound
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:55
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Thanks hcandersen.

A third party did have access to our mail - The Asst. Chief Constable at Leicester Police - the tenant after us and from whom I collected our mail initially and I have no reason to believe he tampered with our mail (it is a new estate and mail does go missing a lot), but he is happy to write something to the effect that I collected our mail regularly and that often his post went missing too. He moved out in September after a short lease and the incoming tenant after that had no reason to keep anything addressed to us as, by then, everything had been transferred to new address so he binned or returned post - we have had no dealings with them.

As I said before, I'm not contesting the PCN just the fact that despite the DVLA records having been update in July 2018, and I accept this is AFTER the PCN, how a NIP, or court summons can be issued in, say, Sept or Oct (I'm guessing) to the wrong address, for it then go to court and then a judgement be made against us even though we can prove that we never received these docs in Sept or Oct because they were sent to an old address that we vacated 6 months previously - surely it is unreasonable to expect postal redirections much beyond a few months.

Anyway, that said if the general feeling is just pay up, then fine. We have not tried to run from this and until this morning had no idea it had gone so far. I just feel that somewhere that must be a law or rule that says the court must serve the papers to the RK and not just the last know address - surely that isn't right, especially when the the DVLA had, by that point, up to date address details, surely there has been a failure of due dilligence on both the Council, Court and Debt collection agency?

I would welcome any help filling out the OOT, thank you.

All I have, in terms of documents issued, is what I have attached to this thread which we received this morning. We have not been served any other correspondance to the new address although I expect that will change now I have given out the new details. I don't have a copy of the warrant - would I contact TEC for that?

TIA - Solidsound.

QUOTE (spaceman @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:22) *
QUOTE (Solidsound @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:55) *
...and although the V5 was sent off in a reasonable time to DVLA following our move...


I don't think TEC, a District Judge or the authority will consider 2 months a "reasonable time" in which to submit a change of address to DVLA.



Ok. Thanks spaceman.
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Neil B
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 14:58
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How much is the bailiff currently asking? and any deadline?


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Solidsound
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:08
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:58) *
How much is the bailiff currently asking? and any deadline?


Neil B £393.00 in total at the moment - there is an attachment on my original post that gives a bit of a breakdown.

£83 original PCN
£75 Becuase it went to Debt collection (after Court)
£235 because Debt collectors turned up on the doorstep of old address in December 2018.

QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:58) *
How much is the bailiff currently asking? and any deadline?



... sorry and dedline is 23.59 on 11/05/2019 - although they have agreed to suspend the case for a week, so I'm no sure where that leaves me with that deadline.
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Neil B
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:25
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Yeah sorry, I'd seen it after asking.

At that point it's worth trying an OOT application.

The fact you knew you'd had a PCN on the vehicle weighs against you but the ACC's
statement might help.

QUOTE (Solidsound @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:55) *
how a NIP, or court summons can be issued in, say, Sept or Oct (I'm guessing)

QUOTE (Solidsound @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 13:55) *
6 Nov 2018 - Court issued Warrant to recover unpaid debt? - sent to old address (not received by us) and no warning, summonses, or other court papers were received by us as sent to old address.


None of those things.
The system is automatic - debt gets registered = you owe.

The warnings missed were Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery.
The Council can only use the address they are originally given.




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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Solidsound
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:32
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 16:25) *
None of those things.
The system is automatic - debt gets registered = you owe.

The warnings missed were Charge Certificate and Order for Recovery.
The Council can only use the address they are originally given.



Ok, fair enough - I'm not going to persue this if I have little chance of success. Do you think it is worth doing the OOT or should I just admit defeat and walk away? (and pay up)
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Neil B
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 15:50
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QUOTE (Solidsound @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 16:32) *
Do you think it is worth doing the OOT

See my comment regarding 'Bogsy' in post #11 of
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=127663

--- where the poster has less going for him/her than you do.

Don't ask, don't get.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Solidsound
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 16:56
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 16:50) *
See my comment regarding 'Bogsy' in post #11 of
http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=127663

--- where the poster has less going for him/her than you do.

Don't ask, don't get.


Thanks Neil B.. noted! I'll give it a go then. I'll ask the ACC to draft the letter for me in the meantime. Can I ask for some help with filling out the OOT please?
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Incandescent
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 17:49
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QUOTE
Can I ask for some help with filling out the OOT please?

Only a few on here have done this, Neil B is probably your best bet or you could contact Sheila at: -

www.bailiffadviceonline.co.uk

Small fee payable for preparing the OOT.
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Neil B
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 20:47
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QUOTE (Solidsound @ Tue, 7 May 2019 - 17:56) *
I'll ask the ACC to draft the letter for me in the meantime. Can I ask for some help with filling out the OOT please?

You'll need ACC's statement quite quickly.

On TE7.
Firstly understand what it is.

The final noticed missed, OfR, allowed you to make a TE9 witness statement, in a limited time, stating no PCN or NtO received.
Reset is then automatic --- but you are beyond that limited time.

So TE7 is very specific: A request to file TE9 late, explaining why you couldn't before.

Bearing that in mind, you 'did not receive the Notice to Owner or any subsequent notices'.

-- due to moving -- attach evidence.

-- for which you updated DVLA.*

-- arrangements made to pass on mail, etc.


* I disagree with post #3, in part. DJs have been known to accept longer than two months as still
an understandable delay in updating, considering the stress and work involved in moving.

You must not lie but you don't necessarily have to incriminate yourself.


Draft something for our input.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 7 May 2019 - 20:48


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 7 May 2019 - 21:20
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File your OOT.

IMO, you either did not check your mail properly or we're being led up the garden path. But I was not there and you were.

If the ACC values their pension then they'd be wise to be guarded as regards their comments and to not embellish what they know to be be true.

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Solidsound
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 11:23
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Thanks for this Neill B. I have contacted ACC and made the request. I'll look through all of this today and draft something to post here for review - thanks.

I also don't agree with post #3, but I'm not here to argue, just work out what might be the best thing to do and I appreciate your input.

This post has been edited by Solidsound: Wed, 8 May 2019 - 11:29
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hcandersen
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 12:03
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IMO, you're looking at the wrong issue.

The only procedural issue at this point is why you did not file your witness statement in time.

To know the answer to this we need to know the date the OfR was issued.

And we don't.

Get back to the council and fill in this gap pl.

Your argument depends on the response. Although an authority has no obligation to check with DVLA other than when preparing to issue a NTO, if DVLA updated your details before the OfR was issued then this is a stronger argument than if they did so afterwards.

Date please.

And also confirm the address on the extant warrant.

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Wed, 8 May 2019 - 12:05
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Solidsound
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 12:39
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Hcandersen
EDIT


Order for Recovery was sent out on 21 Sept 2018 - I had until the 12 October 2018 to submit a response. The date the PCN debt recovery was filed with TEC was 20 Sept 2018.

DVLA had updated their records on 31 July 2018 (see attachment on my very first post).

Address on warrant is old address (although I do not have a copy) will contact Council now and try and get hold of it.

Edit
Just spoke with Council; they confirmed above dates and also that TE3 & TE9 were sent to old address. They are going to email a copy to me now. They also explained that they can only request info on RK once and that was done on 9 June 2018.

I have had confirmation from Bailiff firm that until 2 May 2019, even they were working off old address supplied by Council despite being able to do their own DVLA lookup. A tracing company was employed to locate us and returned our new address to Bailiff on 2 May 2019 - the same date of the letter we received as attached on my first post.

This post has been edited by Solidsound: Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:56
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Neil B
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:08
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Just for tidiness and clarity.
QUOTE (Solidsound @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:39) *
I have just got off the phone from TEC who confirmed ..

Order for Recovery was dated 20 Sept 2018 - the same date that the PCN debt recovery was filed with Court.

Nope. TEC only know the registration date, not when councils issue OfRs, which they have 15 days to do.
Which is why HCA said to ask the council.


QUOTE (Solidsound @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:39) *
Address on warrant is old address (although I do not have a copy of this) will contact Council now and try and get hold of this.

What do you want it for? Probably only exists electronically anyway.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Solidsound
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:25
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 14:08) *
Nope. TEC only know the registration date, not when councils issue OfRs, which they have 15 days to do.
Which is why HCA said to ask the council.


What do you want it for? Probably only exists electronically anyway.




Council have now been contacted. - see edite post above.


.. and so I have a copy of it, when it was dated and the address it was sent to. - I really am being honest when I say I didn't have it to start with.

This post has been edited by Solidsound: Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:27
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Neil B
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:35
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QUOTE (Solidsound @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 14:25) *
.. and so I have a copy of it, when it was dated and the address it was sent to. - I really am being honest when I say I didn't have it to start with.

You keep making assumptions, effectively telling us how things work and on matters of little importance.

It isn't 'sent' anywhere. They address is where the bailiff may enforce.

Focus on the OOT.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Solidsound
post Wed, 8 May 2019 - 13:48
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Wed, 8 May 2019 - 14:35) *
You keep making assumptions, effectively telling us how things work and on matters of little importance.

It isn't 'sent' anywhere. They address is where the bailiff may enforce.

Focus on the OOT.



Forgive me for not understanding that these things are of little importance. I don't know this and I don't know how all this works. I have been asked to provide the date and address, so the logical thing to do IMHO is to get a copy - I am trying to provide as much info when requested as I can.

Back to the OOT ...
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