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Newham, Parking Contravention Code 30, Zone PN, Parking ticket received, is it valid?
zcacogp
post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 16:03
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Hi,

I received a parking ticket 5 days ago in Newham in London. I displayed a visitors permit in the car which I thought was valid for 6 hours and parked in an area with signage which I now guess means I should only have stayed for 20 minutes. I was there for about an hour and a half. Relevant pictures are as follows;

Front of visitors permit (redacted)




Rear of visitors permit



Front of ticket (redacted)



Rear of ticket



Sign



My question is whether this ticket is valid or whether I have any chance of overturning it. The reason I parked where I did was because I believed that the permit was valid for 6 hours as it says on the front of it and I thought the '20 minutes' on the sign referred to parking without a permit (i.e. offering 20 minutes for free to load or unload). On re-examining the ticket I can see it says 'Up to 6 hours', hence my undoing. A VERY helpful local chap spoke to me when I returned to the car (I think he's seen a lot of people caught out by this over the years) and said that I could get the ticket overturned and explained how and why. I didn't entirely follow his explanation but I believe it was to do with the fact that the CPZ name (i.e. 'PN' in this case) isn't correctly signed when you enter the CPZ - there are meant to be signed on both sides of the road but apparently there aren't. However I've looked at the Newham CPZ map and I'm not entirely sure which CPZ I was in. The map is here:

https://mapping.newham.gov.uk/LocalView/Sites/CPZ/

I was parked here:

https://goo.gl/maps/KYFkXotK3zv

Looking at the Newham CPZ map it looks like I was in the 'Plaistow North' CPZ, which corresponds with the CPZ name being 'PN', but according to their website 'Plaistow North' looks like this:



... and I don't think I was parked anywhere within this.

In short, is there scope for challenging this ticket or should I make the most of the 14-days reduced fee of £40 and pay up quick?

All help welcomed, thanks.


EDITED TO ADD: A hunt on pepipoo throws up this topic, where someone else was caught in a very similar situation in the same borough (Newham). However it doesn't have a conclusion.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...;p=1277340&

Thanks again for any help.

This post has been edited by zcacogp: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 16:06
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post Sat, 15 Dec 2018 - 16:03
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Neil B
post Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 21:53
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QUOTE (zcacogp @ Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 14:54) *
Neil,

If so then is the text of the Appeal I wrote suitable?

Busy at mo.

When I can.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Sat, 13 Jul 2019 - 14:21
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QUOTE (zcacogp @ Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 14:54) *
If so then is the text of the Appeal I wrote suitable?

Let's be honest, you don't have a great case, legally.
That I've highlighted Newham's dual and conflicting use of that sign isn't directly relevant to
the location you parked at.
But an adjudicator might just grasp the relevance.

That said, your text reads excellently imho and with clear layout.

There were a couple of things I thought of last night that might enhance it. I'll have to read again
to recall them and post later.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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cp8759
post Sun, 14 Jul 2019 - 18:23
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I think the argument regarding the sign has merit, how can the same sign have different meanings on different roads? And how would you know what the restrictions mean if the council uses the same sign to convey different meanings?

Are you going for a personal hearing? I think that would greatly enhance your chances in a case like this.


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zcacogp
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 11:24
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Neil, cp8759,

Thanks for your answers. Neil, I think I've accepted that my case is not the strongest but I'm viewing this as an education (never done something like this before) based on a grievance (I was genuinely mistaken by the sign) and the fact that it will only cost me £40 (the minimum cost was £40, the maximum was £80, with a small chance of my case being won and hence free). It's a bit of a roll of the dice to see what happens, and the help of you two is particularly appreciated.

cp - yes, it's a 'Personal' hearing. (I'm not sure how this happened).

If you can't see any obvious improvements to make to the document then I'll submit it to the tribunals website and see what happens a fortnight today (date of the hearing).

Thanks again for your help.
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Neil B
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 12:31
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Sorry, I do want to add something but struggling today.

Wait a day?


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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zcacogp
post Mon, 15 Jul 2019 - 12:32
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Sure, that's fine. I think they allow submissions up to 7 days before the hearing.

Thanks again.
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zcacogp
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 14:56
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Quick update: Newham have sent me a large wadge of paper with a covering letter acknowledging that I have appealed to the Tribunal and that they intend to contest it. There is also a copy of all the letters sent back and forth, photos of the car in the space during the (alleged) contravention, photos of the signs, scans of the parking warden's pocket book, lists of abbreviations and so on. I don't think there is anything new in there - i.e. it is not moving the discussion on, merely a re-statement of the situation.

Given that I need to submit my document before next Monday then please let me know of any improvements that could be made within the next couple of days in order that I can meet the deadline. Thanks again for your help with this.
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Neil B
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 15:22
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I'll try tonight, soz.

Post their case summary from that pack.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Wed, 17 Jul 2019 - 23:15
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Soz.
A lot going on for me.
If you don't hear from me in 24 hours, go ahead.

But others will still want to see that council summary.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 03:12
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Ok, let's look at the bits you need to enhance.
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 14:13) *
Identical signs used by the same council should not mean two different things. Surely that fails the
LATOR requirement for clarity.

The part of LATOR we're referring to is >
18.—(1) Where an order relating to any road has been made, the order making authority shall take such steps as are necessary to secure—

(a)before the order comes into force, the placing on or near the road of such traffic signs in such positions as the order making authority may consider requisite for securing that adequate information as to the effect of the order is made available to persons using the road;


(My bold.)

But then -
QUOTE (Neil B @ Fri, 12 Jul 2019 - 14:13) *
Adjudicators are usually adamant they will not look at unrelated locations but there's a point to be
made here.

It is likely something you would have to press the adjudicator to look at, as politely as possible, at the hearing.

The further relevance is that such duplicitous use of identical signs opens up the issue of 'legitimate expectation';
an appeal point in itself.
FGN residents queried these signs shortly after their introduction, via a local councillor. The answer reflecting the
Gazette notice I've shown you and being the same as your own original interpretation.
The effectis that any residents of FGN or visitors to FGN could legitimately expect the sign to mean the same everywhere
else in the borough.
Whether that applies to you directly or not, the point is still valid.

------

Still got a little more --- later.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 03:13


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
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zcacogp
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 08:29
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Neil,

Thanks. That's all very helpful stuff. Keep me posted with other thoughts. If you have chapter and verse on the query to the local councillor that may be helpful too.

(An aside but you clearly know a lot about parking in Newham. I presume you are a local resident with an interest in such things. In which case, thanks for being so diligent in following local affairs!)
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hcandersen
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 09:50
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Adjudicators are usually adamant they will not look at unrelated locations but there's a point to be
made here.


Possibly.

In which case the OP should relate these sites.

As I understand it, the essence of their case as regards the sign is that it is used to indicate a different restriction by the council elsewhere and therefore a motorist cannot know which restriction actually applies, which is precisely the function signs are required to perform.


If true....

I have parked in the borough and this road using a *** permit on many occasions in parking places with exactly the same sign as was present on the day in question but without issue as regards time. I was therefore perplexed as to how the same sign could in this case lead to a contravention and me being penalised. I put the matter to the authority in representations but without receiving any satisfactory response. Clearly parking should not be a lottery with the motorist the potential victim and given that I will be parking in the area in the future I needed to establish what's what. This has proved difficult without the council's co-operation, however I have managed to discover the following ......your
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hcandersen
post Thu, 18 Jul 2019 - 10:49
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Adjudicators are usually adamant they will not look at unrelated locations but there's a point to be
made here.



In which case the OP should relate these sites.


If true, then..

I have parked using a *** permit on many occasions in parking places with exactly the same sign as was present on the day in question but without issue as regards time. I was therefore perplexed as to how the same sign could in this case lead to a contravention and me being penalised. I put the matter to the authority in representations but without receiving any satisfactory response. Clearly parking should not be a lottery with the motorist the potential victim and given that I will be parking in the area in the future I needed to establish what's what. This has proved difficult without the council's co-operation, however I have managed to discover the following ......your gazette link ...for which the sign in pic * is still displayed.

As the asj will see, this has exactly the same wording as in my case but for a restriction which would not have given rise to a contravention. Luckily I carry coins in my glove compartment for parking purposes but little did I realise that these might include tossing a coin - heads I can park, tails I cannot.


IMO, your appeal must be led by and be substantially about YOU. what you did, what you inferred, why and why the events give rise to your appeal. As I keep posting, adjudicators know the law, what they cannot know unless you tell them is what you did and why.

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zcacogp
post Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 00:32
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Update: Thanks to hcanderson for some good words. I've used them (well, some of them - I missed out the bit about flipping a coin as I don't know how that sort of thing will go down with the Tribunal people) to reinforce my Appeal document and uploaded it to the Tribunals website.

Big Day a week on Monday. Wish me luck.

(SeriousQ: what's the general tone of such a hearing? Formal, like a court? Informal, like a meeting with a jovial colleague? Somewhere in between? I'm guessing that I need to dig out some smart troos and a jacket rather than shorts and a ripped T-Shirt? Any other suggestions for a noobie to such an event? Thanks!)
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hcandersen
post Sun, 21 Jul 2019 - 07:48
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Glad you omitted the coin, it wasn't meant for inclusion!

But keep in mind because it's a suitable analogy which you could slip in if the opportunity presented itself.

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Neil B
post Tue, 23 Jul 2019 - 23:20
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zcacogp.
Can you tell me your tribunal case number please?
I have something in the pipeline for you.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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zcacogp
post Sun, 28 Jul 2019 - 22:39
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Neil,

JUST seen your post, and the tribunal is tomorrow! I'm curious what you may have in the pipeline ....

Tribunal case number is 2190264386.

If you see this before around 9.30am tomorrow then I look forward to seeing what you have in the pipeline. If not then everyone else can wish me luck (even if it is to say "You haven't a hope but all the best anyway!")

Thanks again.
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Neil B
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 00:09
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Well about time; last minute. rolleyes.gif

pm me your email address for something that might help.



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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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zcacogp
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 10:43
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Update: The appeal was allowed.

More detail: The adjudicator looked at the paperwork that I had with me and referred to details on his screen. He looked up the area on Google Maps and spent much time thinking about the first point (identical signage in different locations having different meanings). He looked at the second (documents not available for inspection at the local authority offices) and third (premium rate fax number) points more briefly. He agreed to allow the appeal on the first point although did comment that he wouldn't have parked there himself under the same circumstances as he had more experience of parking signs and thought it probably prohibited doing what I was given a ticket for.

He commented that the documents not being available at the local authority offices was something he would alert the Town Clerk to but wasn't really a basis for appeal. He had come across the point about premium rate fax lines being used by councils in other hearings and thought it had merit but he probably wouldn't allow the case on this basis.

So .... the right result. Apparently he writes to me and to the local authority and I don't have to pay the fine.

Which means I owe a significant debt of thanks to you chaps for your assistance. Thank you. Is there a protocol for what to do in this instance; can I contribute some bottles to the Pepipoo Christmas Party? Is there a favoured charity that I can make a donation to? Please name the cause and I will be happy to give.

Again - thank you.

This post has been edited by zcacogp: Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 10:44
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cp8759
post Mon, 29 Jul 2019 - 14:06
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Can you give us the case reference please?


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