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N244, notice sent to old address, daylight robbery
markdown
post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 21:45
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So I am in the following situation:

on the 15th august 2018 i apparently committed the offence of being in a bus lane.

i moved out of my previous residence on 7th august and into my current one on the 16th august.
i informed the dvla of this change during this period(not sure exact date) and recieved an updated driving license with the new address dated 16th august.

on 15th march 2019 i recieved a notice of enforcement from jbw to my current address, telling me i owed £173. this is the first I became aware any offence had been committed.

i filed a statuary declaration out of time and a few days back recieved a letter from the courts and tribunals services informing me that my out of time was refused. No reason was given why and to appeal this, it is £100/£255(with judge), plus it states there is the possibility of further costs being awarded against me.

I still have not recieved anything directly from the council in regards to the offence. On the letter from the courts and tribunals service it states:
"the response from the local authority with regards to your out of time application should already have been served to you.", which I've not recieved(presumably they are still posting to the old address).

What would be the advice given this situation?
I'm intending to challenge this given I am not in the wrong, but the threat of mounting legal fees is a little daunting.

I also want to understand any technicalities that could potentially be used against me.

1. If the change of address was requested on the 16th august, where do I stand as the offence was committed on the 15th? I don't know the date the notice of the offence was posted, but assuming it wasn't on the same date of the offence, should the address the notice was posted to, be the address at the date of the offence or the address at the time of posting?

2. after this initial notice, the address should have been updated and any further correspondence should have been sent to the correct address. I'm not sure what the procedure is if they don't get a reply back to the initial letter, but surely any correspondence after that should have been sent to my current address.

Thanks for any help.

This post has been edited by markdown: Wed, 15 May 2019 - 21:48
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post Wed, 15 May 2019 - 21:45
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 16:18
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I'll respond later.
There's actually not too much wrong.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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hcandersen
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 18:08
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In this very long thread, at no stage have the absolute bare bones of the OP's OOT been made clear in narrative form(they're in referenced photos). Post #1 was the closest, but even this was interspersed with editorial.

These are the facts presented by the OP in their OOT:

I moved out 7Aug 2018;
I moved in 15Aug 2018;
I informed DVLA in this period and attach MY DRIVING LICENCE as evidence.

That's it.

Inference and implication are no substitute for evidence.

Dear DJ,
Sorry to bother you, but in my OOT submission I omitted the crucial piece of evidence to support my application, this being my V5C regarding which I informed DVLA in a timely manner as soon as I had occupied and begun to keep my vehicle at my new address on ** ....

would have been my take in general terms. Not that everyone else - TEC, the authority - were wrong when clearly they were not based on the actions they took in light of the available evidence.

But it's water under the bridge now, I fear.

NeilB, do your best to get what is clearly the fair outcome.
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 20:29
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Markdown.
Let me first explain what I'm suggesting.
The decision on then whether to change anything or leave them as they are will be up to you.

IF there is anything technical or format wise wrong with your form TEC will bounce it and tell you what's wrong.
As you posted it they'll only do that by post, so, other than gleaning anything by phone, you wouldn't know
that until sometime next week; not ideal with a bailiff on your tail.

E-mailed applications are processed quicker and any 'bounce' would be notified next day, to your e-mail.
TEC are fickle and will bounce on the smallest detail one day and accept any old guff the next. There's no telling.

How can we change anything?
TEC will process (or bounce) the first application they receive, so an amended N244 tonight has a good chance of getting picked up first.
The one in the post would then be ignored.

---------

Let's now look at your N244 >

As I said, not a great deal wrong but I just don't know what tech/format issues TEC might bounce on huh.gif

I'll make suggestions for deletions in red and make any relevant comments in blue.

First, the various boxes.

QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 16:57) *
section 2: defendant correct
section 3: Application for leave to file a Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement
No. More specific: 'To revoke the Order of the Court Officer, of 9th May 2019, that refused leave to file a Statutory Declaration outside the normally permitted time.


4: yes 'No'; they have their own standard Orders ready
5: without a hearing
6:
7:
8: District Judge Leave blank
9:


Nothing major but, like I said, no telling if anything in your current version will make them go tilt.

-------
Little break, 30-40 mins, then I'll comment on your main statement draft --- and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised biggrin.gif

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 20:52


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:13
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@ hcandersen:

you know, if i had more time to think clearly, i might have actually gone down this route. in fact, albeit slowly, i think I'm probably coming round to this way of thinking.

@ neil

thanks neil, I think just based purely on the fact that it would be dealt with quicker and I can get the bailiffs off my back, I would submit it by email.

in fact, if i had known about email, I would simply have emailed them!

just a couple of quick questions when you do get back:
is the email address: tec@justice.gov.uk ?
do i print the n244 form and send a photo of it along with the evidence?

thanks

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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:24
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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 16:57) *
10: evidence set out in the box below
Not sure how you got that in the box? Handwritten?
TEC demand forms are completed in BLOCK CAPITALS but all they really want is clarity: Typed font is fine in normal case and
caps in usual places.
In your particular case, 'Please see attached Statement of Case' would be ideal, using a separate sheet and heading it with name, PCN No., etc. And of course signing that sheet as well.


my statement in full:

I understand HCA's preference for brevity, getting the facts upfront and obvious. It's an ability I struggle with myself so can't criticise
your efforts.
In fact, I discussed your draft yesterday and more-so today, with an expert in the field. We both concluded it was a little wordy and hence overlong but, on balance, perfectly adequate, with all relevant facts. My associate described it as 'the submissions of an honest motorist' which can help when you consider what I added to that > 'as opposed to something copied and pasted from some internet help forum clever-dick, like myself, HCA, cp8759, et al'.



So there's minimal changes to make but I need another 20 min break. Soz.

QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:13) *
just a couple of quick questions when you do get back:
is the email address: tec@justice.gov.uk ?
do i print the n244 form and send a photo of it along with the evidence?

thanks

I'll cover this too.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:22


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 21:58
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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 16:57) *
I'm making an application to appeal against OOT decision.
Already covered by the Order requested in box 3.

Firstly, I would like to bring attention to the fact that my appeal this application has been hampered by mcc's refusal to provide a copy of their objection despite the fact in the letter sent by the Traffic Enforcement Centre refusing my out of time application, it quite clearly states: "The response from the local authority with regards to your out of time application should already have been served to you". Superfluous? DJ knows; he/she works there and has seen a few!

I contacted MCC after my OOT application was refused to get a copy of their objection, but was informed they did not consider sending a copy of the objection part of the procedure. This occurred over a phone call, the date and time of of the call: Friday 17th May 2019, 11.24am and the person I spoke to: ....

The events that occured are as follows:
The salient facts of my case are:-
7th August 2018: I moved out of my previous residence.
15th August 2018:
I moved into my new address.
I submitted my change of address for my driving licence and v5 document.
The driving licence address change was done online and was actioned the next day.
(evidence attached)
The V5 document address change was done via post and was actioned on 28th August 2018 (v5 document attached).
Also on 15th August, the alleged offence was committed.
20th August 2018: The PCN was sent out, to the old address, by which time I was no longer living there.
15th March 2019: Notice of Enforcement sent to current address, which is the first time I became aware of the offence.

When i made the OOT application, i provided evidence of my tenancy agreements, both previous and current, which clearly showed the dates at which i left the previous address and moved to my current address.
I also provided a copy of my driving licence with my updated address, dated 16 August 2018, which I assumed at the time would provide evidence of the address held by the DVLA at the time of the offence. However it was brought to my attention that the address obtained would be the one from the V5 document, which I have now included.
I now realise it may have helped had I included a full copy of my V5C, showing that I updated my address most promptly.

As for any objections MCC might have in regards to my application, as previously stated, I am unable to address what any of these may be as they have not provided a copy of the objection, but I believe the tenancy agreements in themselves should have been adequate evidence that I was no longer at my previous address when the pcn was served and that this situation only arose from the very unfortunate timing of the PCN coinciding with my change of address and, at that early stage, no party being at fault.


I would also like to add I also recieved a similar PCN(bus lane contravention) on the same road on 20th September 2018(ie a month later) which I dealt with on time and was successful on winning on appeal. The PCN number was: .... I have attached evidence of the appeal.

In light of this, I feel that my out of time application should not have been refused by Manchester City Council, and I would like to request my fees for this N244 be refunded as this has been an unneccesary additional process and expense.


I have at all times followed the correct procedure, I filed my change of address immediately when I moved, the only period at which the address was still showing as the old address was the time it takes to process, ie 13 days, which is not something as far as I am aware can be shortened.


I haven't touched the penultimate paragraph because i'm still dubious/unsure of my ground.

I hope I haven't added more than I've taken out laugh.gif but it's suggestions of red out, blue in and see how it reads.

Final questions covered asap; I'm tired.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:08


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:00
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10: actually, i just put "see attached sheets for statement" and had a printout of my statement. i didn't annotate it with pcn etc or even sign it, so i guess i'll get that right this time.

my statement: i'm normally one to write short statements in simple language but feel the need to compensate when doing stuff like this so it probably ends up feeling wordy.

take your time, and thanks for the help :-)
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:04
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Quick intermediate comment.

For mcc, at your first mention, substitute, 'the claimant, Manchester City Council (MCC)', and from then you can abbreviate to 'the claimant' or, just 'MCC'.
Latter is possibly best.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:08
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You were right about being pleasantly surprised btw, the changes are fairly minimal

And yes, agree about Manchester City Council, it was actually on my to do list but in my hurry I forgot all about..
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:26
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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:13) *
just a couple of quick questions when you do get back:
is the email address: tec@justice.gov.uk ?
do i print the n244 form and send a photo of it along with the evidence?

Oh gawd; now it gets awkward I guess we have to apply common sense.

Yes that's the correct address --- but not normally for N244 huh.gif
When you paid, via 'ccbc fees' section? they usually tell you to email them direct to their own, separate e-mail address,
where they'll be looking to link it with your payment and bunging it in the queue for processing.

I'm thinking this is a good thing cos anything arriving by post gets sent over to them, taking how long?
and anything to tec@justice ditto but maybe quicker.
Point is, any N244 has to go through ccbc fees first, to confirm payment made. So we e-mail ccbc fees and use
tec@justice as a back up.
I just have to find the address!


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:35
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Fee paid applications: ccbcfees@justice.gov.uk

according to this page:

https://courttribunalfinder.service.gov.uk/...ess-centre-ccbc

the person i spoke to didn't any say anything about having to do anything out of ordinary since for paying up front, but mind you, my question was in regards to posting the application

This post has been edited by markdown: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:41
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:46
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Right got it.

ccbcfees@hmcts.gsi.gov.uk

What I suggest we do is explain --

-- that your N244 is attached, following your payment on ------
-- that you are unsure if address is correct so have also copied to tec@justice.gov.uk
-- and vice-versa.

Put your PCN No. in all headings.

Forget your postal and we'll just hope it gets binned.

Follow up with a phone call circa ?am to see if everything is hunky dory for processing.

QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:13) *
do i print the n244 form and send a photo of it along with the evidence?

Yes. Clear, head on pic + statement + V5C and attach.
Your OOT evidence of tenancies, original OOT, MCC objection, etc will be added by TEC for the DJ to see.

Put your PCN No. on and sign and date every sheet you send.

This post has been edited by Neil B: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:47


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:51
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ok brilliant, i think i can manage that.....

thanks a lot for the help, much appreciated :-)


just a quickie....which box in section 10 am i ticking?
"the attached witness statement"?

This post has been edited by markdown: Tue, 21 May 2019 - 22:52
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 23:09
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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 23:51) *
ok brilliant, i think i can manage that.....

thanks a lot for the help, much appreciated :-)


just a quickie....which box in section 10 am i ticking?
"the attached witness statement"?

Doesn't much matter as long as the title of attached matches what you tick.

I prefer 'Statement of case' as that, to me, is the style you've written in and probably most
appropriate.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 23:17
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yep thanks, think that's what i'll go for...
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Neil B
post Tue, 21 May 2019 - 23:49
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Compared to the many bailiff cases on here, over 50% seeking the big red 'make it all go away' button and petering
out after just a few posts, shocked that they might actually have to some minimal, basic work, your efforts have been deserving of help.

Been a pleasure, all bits crossed and I wish you the best.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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markdown
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 08:16
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thanks neil, appreciate the effort you've put in!

yep, the email didn't bounce so i guess that's a start, will update the thread with any significant updates
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Neil B
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:03
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QUOTE (markdown @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 09:16) *
thanks neil, appreciate the effort you've put in!

yep, the email didn't bounce so i guess that's a start, will update the thread with any significant updates

I've only just noticed you found the ccbc fees address before I did --- and yours is more up to date.


Good idea to phone to check all is ok.


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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Bailiff Advice
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 12:32
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I notice that HUGE 'pats on the back' should be given to all contributors on this thread and in particular; to Neil B !!!

Well done to everyone......
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markdown
post Wed, 22 May 2019 - 15:05
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QUOTE (Bailiff Advice @ Wed, 22 May 2019 - 13:32) *
I notice that HUGE 'pats on the back' should be given to all contributors on this thread and in particular; to Neil B !!!

Well done to everyone......


yes, seconded.....thanks all :-) and a special thanks once again to neil....
spoke to tec to confirm the case has been logged, mcc notified so hopefully no more trouble with the bailiffs!
couldn't say whether it was the email/post but whatever it is, it's done now
said it could be upto 8 weeks but will update once a decision has been made


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