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Neil B
Posted on: Today, 17:11


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We haven't seen the PCN?

Do we know the location?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486861 · Replies: 4 · Views: 64

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 16:41


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QUOTE (T40JCK @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 15:56) *
The debt collectors are emailing me all the documentation

They don't have anything to show you of any use to; your daughter does, as I said.

I assume, you having read my previous post, are preparing to obtain and show us those docs?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486854 · Replies: 3 · Views: 50

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 16:18


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I'll respond later.
There's actually not too much wrong.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486848 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 15:19


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QUOTE (T40JCK @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 15:56) *
She appealed this ticket but was told that she had to pay it. She appealed again but was denied. She did not hear anything else and contacted them but was told to pay it. She did not!

That was clever, considering the options that would (should) have been presented to her? On that basis she owes £513.

We need to see the FULL exchange of notices and correspondence, to see if TH have erred and see if she can make a
viable application to the court to revoke the debt order.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486832 · Replies: 3 · Views: 50

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 15:05


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QUOTE (PE2NoticeHelp @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 16:02) *
But if councils were proactive, they could access Experian records for updated addresses etc.

No, they can't.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486824 · Replies: 9 · Views: 76

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 14:56


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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 15:39) *
I guess the bailiff visit shook me a little,

Understandable.

You don't have a copy of the N244 you sent?

Take a pic, host the image externally, e.g. Tinypic or Flickr and paste the [IMG] or BB code into a reply here.

But can we get the terminolgy right; it isn't what I want, it's what you need.
I don't want you to fail in your application.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486819 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 14:07


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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 14:58) *
Yes I've posted it, I made a payment over the phone.....

Why is it a bad thing btw? Is my statement sub standard?

We needed to first check you've completed the form correctly - format, etc.

If not and it bounces, notification of that will be too slow, by post.

You should have e-mailed it ----- but we still can, to get it right. Probably later this evening.

Show me the form you sent and we'll sort it tonight.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486798 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 14:00


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QUOTE (PE2NoticeHelp @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 14:23) *
I will get in touch with Sheila - thanks.

She is aware of your case but will need a lot more detail, i.e all dates and events between PCN
and clamping.
+ MH issues (in private).

I think you have misread the bailiff and being rather unfair. Sounds genuinely helpful to me.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486797 · Replies: 9 · Views: 76

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 13:52


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So you've posted it?

How have you paid?

This can probably be salvaged.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486794 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 12:30


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No. You will fail.

Please answer the question about your V5C

Get a friend to help translate what we are saying.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486773 · Replies: 7 · Views: 75

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 12:03


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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 12:06) *
hi guys, so just a quick note on this, i had the bailiffs come round and issued a notice of intention to take control of goods(!) so i've just ended up sending my appeal as is, i added a paragraph about my previous ticket, turns out it was a month later so i think the fact that i dealt with it in time should help.

now i've got to wait a couple of days until tec notify mcc who in turn notify the bailiffs to suspend proceedings...

Oh FFS no!

The bailiff, arguably, cannot do that.

Your N244 is probably not correctly formatted and, if we're lucky, will bounce.

Who exactly have you sent it to?

and which bailiff?
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486763 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 11:57


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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 11:42) *
Neil B, is there anything that says an N244 can be filed in this scenario on a without notice basis? If so, this might be much easier than I thought, see https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure...costs#rule44.10 and rule (с) in particular:

Way over my head and no time to digest.

I just have this gut feeling, from some experience of TEC the submissions you are suggesting will not
get past the 'accepted for processing' stage.
Maybe, in some way, they are exempted from many of the rules you quote?

I don't want to obstruct you trying but what would you do with a bounced N244. Even if you are right, is
there time to argue with them at an administrative level.

Your ideas are interesting but perhaps best saved for another day?
In prep for future cases you could always open a dialogue with TEC about the possibilities.

-----
And there remains that 'caveat' to N244 I mentioned earlier and now detail.
Very rarely mentioned and little known because it very, very rarely happens; N244 is not
100% without risk.
Once a decision is served, either party may seek a review within 7 days.
Such further review is always set for a personal hearing. It follows that MCC would attend, having previously
had no say in the first N244.
Councils often attend such proceedings mob-handed and if any costs were to be awarded against
the respondent, it could run into 000s.

I imagine such very rare events might occur only, for instance, where one or other party had
seriously misled the court ------ but ------

--- MCC won't so much as blink at losing an N244 but who knows how they'd react to a costs order
of £100 on top.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486759 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Today, 11:21


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QUOTE (markdown @ Tue, 21 May 2019 - 09:48) *
So here's my first attempt:

Not a bad start.
I'll come back to it.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486743 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 23:41


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I can see why markdown had a migraine; I've got a headache with this one.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 23:31) *
the OP's decision is not contingent upon consensus, so they must make the best application anyway.

Agreed on that, with some regret at the lack of consensus.

I have to ask cp8759 some questions.
Again I appreciate your extensive knowledge in legal procedures but I can't help doubt the ultimate
outcome of your suggestions; so:-

-- Have you ever made such multiple submissions as you suggest, to TEC specifically?
-- Are TEC prepared to process such applications, in your experience?
-- Would such be dealt with by a postal decision or might the court decide a full personal
hearing was necessary?
-- How do you propose markdown complete sections 4- 9 of the N244 form? And, as an aside, out of interest,
section 2 ?

---------------

For the record and @ markdown.
I, sadly, have to withdraw my idea that you might recoup the cost of N244.
After a discussion today, with an expert in the field, I now believe your chances of that are very poor.
That is based on various avenues having been previously explored ---- but not including the
recent suggestion of cp8759, which I have insufficient knowledge of to comment on.

---------

My conclusion remains the same; 1/. or 2/. from my post earlier today.




QUOTE (markdown @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 18:23) *
I'm sorry for being thick, but aren't the PE2 and OOT the same? the PE2 form is my OOT application?

Yes they are but I was querying if you meant the order of submissions for that or for the N244 to come.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486671 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 20:09


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QUOTE (Khialmohd @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 21:03) *
Neil B, previously i have uploded all forms TE3/7/9 but deleted to get more space on this forum.

But now you know how to show images and don't need upload space.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486638 · Replies: 58 · Views: 1,228

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 17:13


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Just one bit I missed and it's quite important.
QUOTE (markdown @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 10:58) *
in regards to the out of time application, do they get to see the evidence i have submitted before they submit their own? or are they just submitting it blind like myself and then it is up to the judge to decide?

I'm gonna assume you don't mean your OOT cos we've already covered that: They got a copy of your PE2 and then objected, in that order.

If you mean the proposed N244 then only what you say now will be before the DJ + your original PE2 and
MCC's mysterious objection.
MCC are not invited, nor can, respond any further at this stage.
That is, as long as you opt for the £100 postal decision.

There's a caveat to that I'll post when I get a mo.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486606 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 17:02


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I guess it is up to Markdown.

  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486604 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 16:35


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QUOTE (cocob1805 @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 17:12) *
OK - I was under the impression from speaking with them on the phone and the helpline that a pre-warning on when they are coming is compulsory...

Is the £235 added before they come to your door?

Difficult to tell. All bailiffs interpret differently.
The Regs are here > https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/contents/made

5.—
(b)the enforcement stage, which comprises all activities relating to enforcement from the first attendance at the premises in relation to the instructions up to but not including the commencement of the sale or disposal stage;

Does seem to confirm attendance is necessary.

QUOTE (cocob1805 @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 17:12) *
I am very relieved the PE3 form only means the other fine will go back to PCN stage which I wasn't expecting.

Can you clarify it would be the £130 and chance to appeal stage pls?

Better.
£65 discount on new PCN, or fight.

QUOTE (cocob1805 @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 17:12) *
Do you have any suggestion how I can write carefully? Thanks

I understand your point about "temporary", I just don't think it would work.
Islington might even forget to object to your OOT but I can't recommend anything that risks your money.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486595 · Replies: 25 · Views: 397

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 16:04


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QUOTE (cocob1805 @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 11:01) *
I can pay tonight or have the declaration sent tomorrow with signatures before 4pm.

What would your declaration say?
I can see it's a bit unlucky the PCN was due to arrive on just the day before you moved, maybe later.
But your failure to update V5 promptly could weigh against you unless you wrote somewhat carefully.


QUOTE (cocob1805 @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 11:18) *
When I spoke to them on the phone they said I would receive a letter with a date and time of visit and I have not yet received that mail

I doubt that means they'll be making an appointment !
Such a letter is more likely to add a further £235 fee.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486589 · Replies: 25 · Views: 397

Neil B
Posted on: Yesterday, 15:50


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QUOTE (markdown @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 10:58) *
hi guys, sorry i'm finding the legal arguements a little hard to follow.

Bit of plainspeak then.

QUOTE (markdown @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 10:58) *
the v5 application was made by post
the v5 began processing on the 23rd august.
they don't keep dates the v5 is sent.

This is fine: Since DVLA take 4-6 weeks to process it is clear you updated well within a reasonable time.

QUOTE (markdown @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 10:58) *
lets say for arguement sake since that since i'm unlikely to get the above in, in time, the timeline the judge considers is:
15th august. offence committed.
20th august. pcn sent.
29th august. v5 changed. maybe allow a few days before but still after the 20th august.

procedurally, if the council only have to get the address once, they have followed all the correct steps.

Yes, they did nothing wrong initially but, as above, neither did you. Just a matter of unfortunate timing of your
move.
You should have pointed that out on your PE2 but that's not the end of the world. I'll explain that in a mo.

What MCC have done wrong, imo, is to object to your PE2 OOT.
You omitted a copy of your V5 but they still had enough info to plainly see that none of the statutory notices
could possibly have reached you (i.e.not 'served' on you).

It followed that, when they objected, a TEC Court Officer had to decide and did so against you.
Yet they also had those dates and your evidence in front of them.

-------------

What is an N244 exactly?

A request for a District Judge to decide if the TEC CO was right or wrong to refuse your PE2 OOT.

Civil Procedure Rules, Practice Direction 6.3 says
6.3 Attention is drawn to the limited powers of a district judge where a request is made to review an order of a court officer refusing an application for further time for filing a statutory declaration or witness statement. Any review of that order by a district judge will only be a review of the decision to refuse the application for further time for filing a statutory declaration

So how does that pan out exactly?
Well the 'reasons' of judges deciding N244s is not made public, or even stated to those asking for the N244.
So all we have to go on is previous results of just 'yes' or 'no' in relation to N244s we' seen submitted or helped with.

It seems apparent that DJs are willing to take a broad view and look at all the facts of a case, rather than the
narrow view cited in CPR above.
Put simply, he/she is a judge and if it ain't fair, it ain't fair and they'll find so.
We've also seen that they appear to accept that Joe Public can't possibly be expected to know how to compile
a complete PE2 OOT or what to include.
So anything important you missed can now be added, e.g. the unfortunate timing, neither party intially being at fault
and your V5 evidence that you had acted perfectly promptly.

I'll just add that, while I can't make any promises, I have never known a case on this forum, of 'unfortunate
timing', fail at N244.

----

Moving on.
I did say earlier that a copy of MCC's objection would help but you already had a strong case.
Since then, you've been refused in trying to obtain it and neither are you likely to get it.
I'm not seeing this as a great problem and, in fact, as I also said, it can be a benefit.
If your N244 statement opens with the fact your application has been greatly hampered by not receiving a copy,
MCC confirming they never sent it and their subsequent refusal to do so, you surely gain immediate sympathy
from the judge.

In conclusion.
My view is that you can either -

1/. Submit the N244 in the normal time allowed, for net gains as your figures explained (your figs were correct btw)
Against the risk of losing and facing a total cost of £273.

2/. Pay the £173 now and forget all about it, saving all the hassle.

I guess it boils down to whether you want to fight on principal, even though the net reward is not great.

I'm very short of time but could maybe squeeze some to help with the N244.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

NB
I'm not ignoring cp8759's suggestion. He has a great knowledge of court procedures. I just don't think they
can be applied to TEC.

Neither am I ignoring HCA's concern that the failings/omissions of your PE2 would lead a DJ to conclude the
TEC CO was right to refuse. I just think the broader view I described, along with the interests of justice, will
see you through that risk.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486587 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:27


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QUOTE (hcandersen @ Mon, 20 May 2019 - 00:07) *
IMO, it doesn't. The paras. effectively refer both to the court officer(TEC) discharging the role of the court(DJ) and to any application for this initial decision to be reconsidered by the DJ in person: same para, just different procedure. But the scope of the DJ's powers are still circumscribed by these paras.

Makes no difference to what I said: A delay in N244 puts Mark at risk, once his 14 days have elapsed, of additional
bailiff fees.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486423 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:59


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Well we're playing tennis now and the complication continues >

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:38) *
If you mean to delay the N244, that potentially puts Mark at significant risk of incurring an additional bailiff charge of £235.


Did you read my post? I have merely stated what is in the regs, as follows:

Paragraph (4) applies where it appears to a district judge, on the application of a person on whom a charge certificate has been served, that it would be unreasonable in the circumstances of his case to insist on his serving his witness statement within the period of 21 days allowed for by paragraph (1).

(4) Where this paragraph applies, the district judge may allow such longer period for service of the witness statement as he considers appropriate.


This is the role of the DJ which I set out clearly.

This the Reg concerning the original OOT --- but your para I quoted referred to N244 and needing the objection beforehand.

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 23:38) *
@cp, costs are not normally awarded, in this case refunded. Each side bears their own. It is a commonly understood principle designed to ensure that access to the law is not fettered by thoughts of having to bear another party's costs. It is simply wrong to imply to the OP that costs could or would be awarded to them, in other words their costs rebated, just because they might succeed.

Oooh careful; I agree with that.
I have never seen TEC themselves make such an order.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486418 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

Neil B
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:25


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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 13:33) *
Jeez, what muppet wrote that NOR ??

I love the para that starts "With respect ---"

Yeah, shame that. laugh.gif
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486412 · Replies: 44 · Views: 1,199

Neil B
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:20


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QUOTE (cocob1805 @ Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:32) *
The warrant has not yet been granted on my new address, apologies for delay I haven’t been received notifications.

As it stands they have applied for warrant on my new address.

Mate; I don't ask questions for no reason: You're ignoring a risk.

The warrant is irrelevant and is likely to have been changed inside 48 hours from when you heard that.

Show us the JBW correspondence pls.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486410 · Replies: 25 · Views: 397

Neil B
Posted on: Sun, 19 May 2019 - 22:14


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I've never known a case that boils down to a simple 'unfortunate timing of events', of which we've seen a good few, become so complicated.
For the benefit of Mark I'll address a few things:-
QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 14:31) *
We do NOT know when DVLA were notified of the change,.

Mark; did you make the change online or by post?

QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 11:14) *
TEC notify the authority who submit objection and copy to the owner who then comments again, copy to the authority who then counter ad infinitum.

Nonsense. None of that can happen. TEC do not entertain any further submissions from either party, nor such games of
tennis as you describe.
That's exactly why N244 is available.



QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 11:14) *
The owner must see the grounds before submitting their N244

Any ideas how he might do that in the next 5 days?


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sat, 18 May 2019 - 11:14) *
The rest is up to the owner to see if in their individual circumstances they could convince the judge to allow them extra time to submit their statement

If you mean to delay the N244, that potentially puts Mark at significant risk of incurring an additional bailiff charge of £235.
The only judge able to consider a request for extra time is the judge considering those very N244 submissions.
All has to go on the N244 form.
There is no 'request extra time with submissions to follow'. Nor is there the possibility of filing N244 with 'further
details to follow'


------

I'll do my best to suggest possible ways forward, if I can find a mo, if he's still with us.
  Forum: Council Parking Tickets & Clamping and Decr... · Post Preview: #1486406 · Replies: 80 · Views: 997

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