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bus lane pcn - but i wasnt the driver, Threads merged
bliss
post Wed, 24 Jun 2015 - 09:19
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Hi , i have two bus lane pcn's issued but i wasn't the driver at the time , my brother was borrowing the car and driving at the time. The letter has come to me as the owner and only grounds for appeal seem to be to have hire agreement in place where he signs to take responsibility. What kind of agreement is needed in terms of hire agreement to pass the PCN on to him. He is willing to sign whatever is needed to pass the PCN on, or is there a way to get the 50% discount restated. because the 14 day discount period was over by time i managed to open the letter as was away from home. or is there any other way around these bus lane fines. i see lots of stuff on you tube but not sure if they true or reliable regarding no contract so no need to pay etc...
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post Wed, 24 Jun 2015 - 09:19
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Gan
post Wed, 24 Jun 2015 - 09:50
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There is no way to shift the liability from the owner to the driver

You will have to appeal and he can pay you if you're not successful
As you're now in for the full penalty it makes sense to force it all the way

Post up the PCN, every page with identification details especially PCN reference removed everywhere including any appearance on a payment slip

Please also provide the Streetview location
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Incandescent
post Wed, 24 Jun 2015 - 11:48
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Can we see the two PCNs, please, with PCN Numbers and your car and address details blanked out. Leave everything else in.
There are few avenues of appeal to bus lane contraventions, but we won't know the possibilities until we know much more about these. as said above, it is pointless just paying up now, as the discount has gone.

Why make it easy for them to make shedloads of money. I'll bet there isn't a bus in sight on the photos of the contravention.
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bliss
post Wed, 24 Jun 2015 - 12:34
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please see attached for pics etc.. the other one same location just diff date but i tired appealing against that on bases of hire agreement and full liability taken by brother and got some letters back as attached. one is a charge certificate the other asking for the agreement.

This post has been edited by bliss: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 - 19:30
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bliss
post Thu, 25 Jun 2015 - 12:40
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Hi , anyone able to help on this i added the pics. thanks.
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bliss
post Fri, 26 Jun 2015 - 09:42
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Hi , i have two bus lane pcn's issued both same location different days. i wasn't the driver at the time , my brother was borrowing the car and driving at the time. The letter has come to me as the owner.
what is best way to appeal. i tried on the earlier May one on grounds that i hired car out to brother but they now asking for hire agreement. the new one as attached shows pics with no bus in site . how do i appeal to the recent june one and can i change my appeal for the other (May) one to whatever argument i use for the june one (i'll have to find the original pcn and check out pic but i think it was similar, ie. no bus in site in the pic), even though they asking the hire agreement and issued the certificate of charge can i use hire agreement as attached link http://whipswitch.com/rental%20contract.pdf

bother willing to sign whatever needed to transfer liability , at least could get the 50% discount that way . is there any proven ways out of these bus fines?
what is the certificate of charge all about?
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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 26 Jun 2015 - 09:54
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Please keep to one thread ask a mod to merge


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bliss
post Fri, 26 Jun 2015 - 10:02
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the charge notice is because i didn't get a hire agreement back to hem in time i believe. how do i ask mod to merge my two posts ?
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bliss
post Fri, 26 Jun 2015 - 10:49
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anyone able to help with this? what is my best approach for both PCN now. one still within 28 day other appeal done in 28 day but follow-up delayed
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hcandersen
post Fri, 26 Jun 2015 - 11:08
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OP, 2 PCNs should be 2 threads, but if not you must be absolutely clear about which PCN is being dealt with. One is dated 22 April and the other is .... ?

Anyway, they may not serve a charge certificate for PCN 22 April if you made reps within the 28-day period. NB how I b****y detest the laziness and incompetence of letters which read 'thank you for writing to us' Whatever happened to ' I refer to your letter dated *****', which removes any doubt. Now you have to post your reps and leave in dates and confirm how and when these were sent.

If you made reps within the 28-day period their obligation is to consider and send a written response with their decision. Even if your reps were gobbledegook they still have to respond, so your failure to respond to their request for additional info does not relieve them of their duty, it probably just leaves your reps threadbare. Providing your reps were made in time and you did not receive a response then you have to wait for the next notice which allows you to get the matter reset and referred to the adjudicator at the level of the penalty, not the surcharged one in the charge certificate.

So, we need a clear paper trail for each PCN including dates. Please, please do not give this narrative form but as:
PCN 1
Date of detection ...
Date of PCN...
DATE OF Reps....

Etc.

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bliss
post Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 12:08
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PCN 2: - bus lane fine
location cheetham hill road
date of detection: 02/06/15
date of PCN: 08/06/15
representation not done yet.

sorry but it was the most logical and concise narrative, and ill split it between two threads so slight change from your template.

how can i appeal against the bus lane fine considering there is no bus in site on the pic - what are the technical grounds to make this appeal is there any examples with proven results.
please see pics as attached.

ill post the other one as a separate thread.

This post has been edited by bliss: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 15:27
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 12:24
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post up the pcn all of it redact personal details only. All photos and a GSV


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bliss
post Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 15:25
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whats a GSV. the pic is as in the attached PCN

This post has been edited by bliss: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 15:26
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bliss
post Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 15:51
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what is the appeal text to quote if NO bus is seen in the evidence pic? as above.
and since i wasn't driver can i not appeal on grounds that i have no way of verifying the road and any signs etc,.. as i dont live in area and would need to travel 5 hrs to get to location. eg similar to below appeal .

========================================================
"The PCN's do not provide sufficient information to identify the location of the alleged contraventions. I refer to PATAS case number 2120514740


"Reasons: It is not the case, as the Appellant should note, that the motorist is entitled to withhold payment of a penalty charge, or to preserve the right to pay at the reduced rate, until the enforcement authority has proved the case to his satisfaction. What the motorist is entitled to is prescribed by law which is ( so far as is relevant in the present case) a PCN which states the grounds on which the Authority believes a penalty is payable.

In the present case, however , it seems to me that the PCN is defective in this regard. A clear statement of the alleged location of the contravention is an essential component of those grounds; and this is particularly the case where a PCN is issued for a bus lane or moving traffic contravention where the motorist may not recall the matter. In the present case the PCN s described s the location as "Northolt Rd Northbound". Northolt Road is a very long road and in my judgement the motorist is entitled to be told more precisely where in this road the contravention is said to have taken place. This information in some cases might possibly be provided in the form of the accompanying photograph showing identifiable features; but that is not so in the present case. Where a motorist is given this information he is then able to check the location himself and verify the signage if he wishes to do so.

As the PCN is defective no penalty based on it may be demanded and the Appeal is therefore allowed"
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PASTMYBEST
post Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 16:24
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GSV=Google street view, I think this is the spot

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.501239,-2...3312!8i6656

First off the discount is gone now so might as well take it all the way. The claimed date of notice and date of posting, is the 6th of June, a Saturday. Not sure if this is legal Someone will.

First off we can try for Di Minimis in that you were only in the bus lane for a short distance.

Second the signs did not clearly state the restriction. Accross side road on the left the solid white line should have been replaced with a dotted white line. and there should be a blue bus lane sign on the left as you leave that side road.

Of course this has been taken from a picture taken over a year ago and it may have changed, you will have to check

Ask the council for a copy of the video. do that quickly by phone and/or e mail

This post has been edited by PASTMYBEST: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 - 16:25


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