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PCN Fulham - Stopping in a box
daxilic
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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At morning rush hour in Fulham, London I was at a set of lights at a t-junction needing to go right (exact location details below). Even when the lights went green I couldn't go right as there was no space to enter the short piece of road after the box, which had another set of lights. I must have been waiting at least 5 minutes to go right and the lights had changed about three times. Due to the way the lights were synced and the heavy traffic it was impossible to go right without stopping in the box and I was holding up a lot of traffic behind me, with cars wanting to go left - which they could have if I wasn't waiting to go right. Because of this a few drivers behind were heavily beeping me and eventually I gave in and joined the road after the box, with my car in the box (not blocking any other traffic). I'm certain that I would have been stuck at the lights holding everyone up behind me for a good 5-10 more minutes.

I suppose to get around this I could have gone left then somewhere down the road turned around to come back on myself, but in London rush hour that probably would have cost me 20 extra minutes which I didn't have, plus I really shouldn't have to do that. Ideally there should be two lanes - one for going left, one for right, but that wasn't the case.

Of course today I receive the PCN for £65 (reduced amount). Have I got any chance of appealing here or was it a case of s**t happens?


Location:

Bagleys Lane where it meets New King's Road

Location on Google Maps




Here's a diagram to show the problem:




The PCN letter:







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post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 17:38
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hcandersen
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 12:41
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Or note the cycle of your lights and the other traffic movement and inch forward so as to arrive when there’s a gap, but don’t stop, just creep forward.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 12:46
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FFS--that was a STATUTORY EXEMPTION which Burke has over-ruled on the basis of his definition of oncoming vehicles.

I would ask for a Review because this is Wednesbury Unreasonable--i.e. how can a vehicle at an angle of 90 degrees to traffic flow ever meet his definition?

Mick
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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:03
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QUOTE (Mad Mick V @ Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:46) *
FFS--that was a STATUTORY EXEMPTION which Burke has over-ruled on the basis of his definition of oncoming vehicles.


?
We see dozens of these right turn PCNs - surely there is no statutory defence that you can drive into the box and stop when turning right at a T junction.

In this case the OP had a clear exit lane on the left and chose not to use it and there was no consensus here that this was worth a shot.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:21
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Stamf

I haven't read the whole thread but looked at the OP's original drawing about turning right.

The yellow box is the key and to me this qualifies as a box junction "a box junction must be placed at the junction of two or more roads"---this is from the old TSRGDs:-

Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044

7.—(1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person—

(a)who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and

(b)stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.

Burke focusses on the 2nd bit about oncoming vehicles.

I suppose the 2016 TSRGDs must be the same.

Mick
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stamfordman
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:42
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The possible key is 'or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.' clauses a and b have to go together.

This could apply to waiting in a queue to turn right while in the box, and also to the exit being blocked, which is the case in this thread (or would be if both lanes had been blocked).

But in all the cases like those ones in Kingston and Hammersmith we've not put this forward.

the difference though is that those case are right turn bends/gyratories, not a 90 degree T junction.

the problem as I see it is that we would be arguing that the yellow box is essentially non applicable to drivers like the OP. I think a case can be made for that given no cross traffic is being blocked but can we make it?

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PASTMYBEST
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 13:57
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Taking the view of the adjudicator in the case posted at 105 then the exemption could apply, but burke sticks to the letter of the law. I cant see a review succeeding as he is entitled to reach that finding. He's just wrong
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 17:20
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I think PMB is right a Review won't get past Timothy Thorne whatever case is advanced.

Ho Hum!

Mick
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hcandersen
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 18:25
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Move on, IMO there’s not a snowball’s chance in hell of an application for review being accepted, let alone succeed.

The problem here is not the YBJ, it’s the phasing of the array of traffic lights into NKR and in NKR. The YBJ is there to faciliate traffic flow from Bagley’s. Problem is that YBJs are borough responsibility whereas traffic lights are not.
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Mad Mick V
post Fri, 27 Jul 2018 - 18:39
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The only snowball's chance was the left hand lane which was empty but the OP couldn't move into it because of oncoming traffic e.g. the stuff coming after him. Stamf mentioned lane discipline but the OP was still stymied by traffic turning right as per the legislation IMO.

But I agree little chance.

Mick
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cp8759
post Sat, 28 Jul 2018 - 00:32
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To be honest I think this whole right hand exemption stuff is never going to fly, Parliament's clear intention is that that exemption applies at a crossroads, not at a T junction. The point should have been dropped in favour of emphasising that, on the council's interpretation, you would have to just sit there more or less indefinitely.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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