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All Lives Matter
andy_foster
post Sat, 6 Jun 2020 - 07:25
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Apparently some people consider that the phrase "All Lives Matter" is racist and are offended by it (see link below).

If anyone here falls into that category, I would remind them that "all lives matter" and urge them to let me know how else I can offend them. I would also advise them not to bother learning the definition of racism, as that would spoil much of the fun.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-isle-of-man-52936980

This post has been edited by andy_foster: Sat, 6 Jun 2020 - 11:29


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post Sat, 6 Jun 2020 - 07:25
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stamfordman
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 19:48
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Indeed, the court of humanity finds the policeman guilty and in this case if the court doesn't also find him so to a significant degree* there will be terrible consequences on the streets.

*As I pointed out, this case isn't a binary situation between guilty and not guilty - the defence team has already tried what was presumably an unacceptable plea bargain and we'll see what charges and pleas are lodged - but a total not guilty won't be on the table. Previousy, it was notoriously hard to make anything stick against the American police - but this case will surely mark a change.
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Spandex
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 20:06
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QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 20:15) *
So now you get to decide what guilty is, never mind the law or a court. This doesn't sound that dissimilar to the old lynching mentality that we all consider so appalling now. Take a look at yourself, FFS.

Lol. So much melodrama! A lynching, is it? You couldn’t make it up... oh, hang on...

But yes, I get to decide what I think. You can enjoy having a blissfully empty, opinionless head about the officers guilt (or otherwise) until the verdict is announced. Maybe he’ll get off on some procedural point and you can pretend that it means he didn’t actually murder George Floyd.

Out of interest, were the Birmingham Six ever actually guilty of murder? They were definitely considered guilty for some time, from a legal perspective, but were they ever actually guilty?
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mickR
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 20:46
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 21:06) *
Out of interest, were the Birmingham Six ever actually guilty of murder? They were definitely considered guilty for some time, from a legal perspective, but were they ever actually guilty?

Well theres at least 6 people that know.
Not that has anything to do with it.
But then again just as pointless as all your other posts.

QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 21:06) *
QUOTE (Fredd @ Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 20:15) *
So now you get to decide what guilty is, never mind the law or a court. This doesn't sound that dissimilar to the old lynching mentality that we all consider so appalling now. Take a look at yourself, FFS.

Lol. So much melodrama! A lynching, is it? You couldn’t make it up... oh, hang on...

But yes, I get to decide what I think. You can enjoy having a blissfully empty, opinionless head about the officers guilt (or otherwise) until the verdict is announced. Maybe he’ll get off on some procedural point and you can pretend that it means he didn’t actually murder George Floyd.


And what would you say if it had been a black officer and a white suspect?
Oh wait i forgot you dont answer questions you only ask them

QUOTE (Spandex @ Sun, 14 Jun 2020 - 22:23) *
QUOTE (TMC Towcester @ Sun, 14 Jun 2020 - 22:06) *
Howsabout answering some?

Honestly, I just don’t see the point.

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DancingDad
post Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 23:03
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Wed, 24 Jun 2020 - 18:08) *
……….
I know he’s guilty because I have, unfortunately, seen the video of him murdering the poor guy. ………………... I think I’ll still keep calling it a murder. Scary.

You've seen the video that many of us have seen. The video that shows a thug of a cop kneeling on the victim's neck for an excessive amount of time.
Now define murder?

In the UK I understand there has to be an element of intent, at least to cause serious harm and that caused the death.
From that point of view, I believe there would need to be injuries relating to the restraint or at the very least that the cause of death could relate to it.
Plus intent.
The video does not show intent.
Any intent is ATM, prejudged on a cop deciding to see if he could kill a guy, the racial part because of white cop and black victim.
I could not prove intent from that and would expect any half decent barrister to demolish any attempt to do so.
Manslaughter would be a far more likely charge over here.

In the USA there are (AFAIK) three types or degrees of murder though it varies from state to state.
In some 3rd degree does not exist but there are grades of manslaughter.
(My definitions are probably a little loose for the legal beagles on here.
3rd degree, death resulting from a negligent or criminal act (such as drink driving)
2nd degree, an intentional murder with no premeditation.... so similar to UK Murder
1st degree....Intent and premeditation.

I believe at the moment that he is being charged with 2nd degree.
If so it is IMO a political decision to attempt to placate protesters or the DA actually believes that they can prove intent.

3rd degree or manslaughter I can understand, murder I cannot.

However, if I or anyone else dares question, we are of course risking be tarred as racist.
The narrative says murder, question the narrative at your peril.
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Spandex
post Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 06:13
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I’m not sure it’s possible to kneel on someone’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds without any intent to cause serious harm. Especially if you’re a police officer who in theory should have been trained in what is and what isn’t a safe way to restrain someone.

It’s a bit like strangling someone. Yes, for the first few minutes you might be able to claim you had no intention of killing them, but after a while, that excuse isn’t going to fly.
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cp8759
post Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 09:17
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QUOTE (Spandex @ Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 07:13) *
I’m not sure it’s possible to kneel on someone’s neck for 8 minutes and 46 seconds without any intent to cause serious harm. Especially if you’re a police officer who in theory should have been trained in what is and what isn’t a safe way to restrain someone.

It’s a bit like strangling someone. Yes, for the first few minutes you might be able to claim you had no intention of killing them, but after a while, that excuse isn’t going to fly.

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stamfordman
post Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 09:19
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 00:03) *
I believe at the moment that he is being charged with 2nd degree.
If so it is IMO a political decision to attempt to placate protesters or the DA actually believes that they can prove intent.

3rd degree or manslaughter I can understand, murder I cannot.

However, if I or anyone else dares question, we are of course risking be tarred as racist.
The narrative says murder, question the narrative at your peril.


Sorry DD, this won't do. I explained that there are three charges laid against him - 2nd and 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter. Not one charge, three.

As for the murder charges, you really have to understand their state law before commenting.

Second degree can mean:

"the death of a human being, without intent ... while committing or attempting to commit a felony offense."

The charge has been brought because there was effectively an assault during which someone died. There are other grounds for 2nd degree such as extreme indifference to human life.

3rd degree murder may in fact be more difficult to prove:

actions "eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life."

here are some links

https://abc7.com/george-floyd-derek-chauvin...fficers/6234936

https://criminal.findlaw.com/criminal-charg...r-overview.html

You may not like their law but it is what it is.

This post has been edited by stamfordman: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 09:20
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southpaw82
post Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 11:41
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In other words, 2nd degree is roughly equivalent to unlawful act manslaughter?


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Itchy Bootmore
post Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 11:52
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WOW! Wot a thread you have started Mr Foster. Fascinating, I think it's going to run and run....

I would just observe - in my opinion (only) - there are some quite reactionary and defensive responses and lots of 'what-aboutery' and nit-picking subjective smoke-screening in order to defend status quo paradigms, rather than presenting valid counter-argument to objective points. Interesting that perhaps, if people ever go back and re-read posts in a less emotive mindframe, with hindsight it may give people pause to challenge and acknowledge their own stances at this time.

Ultimately this is a class, power and exploitation issue. Always will be. What we are seeing now is one identifiable sub-group of that class (which in this case is largely the powerless working class and / or working poor) has decided to raise their voice, initially in an issue pertinent to the exploitation of violence to that sub-group. This exploitative violence however, is not exclusive to that sub-group - it usually - not always - manifests in other less immediate ways to the other sub-groups and is just not being voiced in a coherent message currently. There's also the matter that, fairly quickly, this class issue is being diverted into an Identity Politics (classic Divide and Rule tactic of the Powerful, Influential and Wealthy Class) issue to ameliorate the sub-group.... (witness the corporate sponsorship and meaningless mea culpas of large institutions) but to not actually change any of the massive structural conditions in todays society that lead to the exploitations of the class system. In fact, it will act to pitch sub-group against sub-group as reaction and counter-reaction set in. Eerily similar to the virtually meaningless (apart from the 0.08% of EVIDENCED cases) accusations of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

Watch and see - much hand wringing, noisy protests, loud public proclamations of "repentant sinners"....and nothing will change as has happened every time so far with similar manifestations apart from 1789, 1917.

HOWEVER - the caveat being that the unknown efficacy of the pandemic, the reaction of the power elites and their government lackeys when threatened and whether the mass of ordinary working people on this planet regardless of colour, creed, religion, bedroom orientations, music preferences, hair styles or mode of transport decide to demand and drive a message of change for equality, equanimity and share in their own wealth is a mix that MAY prove to be paradigm shifting.

This post has been edited by Itchy Bootmore: Thu, 25 Jun 2020 - 14:25


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