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SATs Exams too middle class....
DancingDad
post Fri, 6 Oct 2017 - 21:05
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-...s-a7986031.html

In flame pit as not motoring and TBH, cos I feel like a rant on this......

QUOTE
English SATs exam 'left pupils in tears because it was too middle class'

WTF has class got to do with ability to read? I understand that some kids, often from deprived backgrounds, think a book is something that you get from the betting shop and that it can be challenging to teach them to read but "too middle class"
And while ranting, SATs have sweet FA meaning for the pupils. They are purely a check on the school/teacher.
So why the 'ell are kids under so much pressure to do well that they break down in tears?
To me this is the school passing their concerns onto the kids instead of looking at their own responsibilities.
Had that argument with the head at my kid's primary school when she told me that SATs were vital to the kid.... horse laugh from me and stifled a rude word.

Then we have:-
QUOTE
‘The life experiences you needed to access the test were quite unusual. I mean, to put yourself in the place of somebody riding a giraffe, I found that quite hard to envisage’

Surely one of the points of reading, especially for pleasure, is to vicariously enjoy/experience things that you probably will never do in real life?
By the time I was in year 5/6 I'd flown to the moon, flown a biplane over enemy lines, fought with savages in the jungles, lived on a desert island. the list is endless.
Riding a giraffe is child's play.

And from an anonymous head teacher...
QUOTE
“The texts were elitist and suitable for white middle-class English children born in 1823.”

So there we have it, education nowadays is worse then in 1823.... a fact I've been suspicious about for many years.

I can understand complaints that the tests were too difficult, subjective but understandable.
But some of the comments in that article are simply excuses of the worst sort, they tell kids (and parents) that it is okay to fail, that trying is no good cos you come from the wrong background.
And leads to the dumbing down of the whole system.

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typefish
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 14:44
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Hey!

I'm someone who hasn't went to university, and is in a role that usually is dominated by uni-goers. wink.gif
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fedup2
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 15:02
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QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 15:35) *
I see where you're coming from FU2, but I'm not sure where the jobs you refer to are coming from.
A good degree certainly isn't required for a McJob. How hard is it to ask someone if they want fries with that?
A good degree certainly is required for practising brain surgery, piloting commercial aircraft and designing billion Pound powertrain systems.
When only 5% of students went to university it was easy for employers to select horses for courses. Nowadays, when the University of Scunthorpe (there isn't one) turns out First Class Honours graduates and an employer finds they can't add up, can't write and is completely unused to the rigour of work, we look abroad.
We import the people who can, and let those who can't do whatever tasks they might find.
I don't think many non-graduate jobs are suitable even for UK "A" level or GCSE students these days.
Their calibre is appalling and the jobs will be taken by immigrants with a better work ethic.



I recall one Friday a few years ago the foreman at work approached me and said a new fork lift driver will be starting Monday. He went on to list his qualifications.My immediate reply was he will be useless then.He looked at me bewildered.

Come Monday i was right,useless and bad attitude to boot.

Experience in the job,not useless paperwork makes good workers and better people.Trouble is,the kids are not ALLOWED to go get it!

This post has been edited by fedup2: Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 15:06
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seank
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 15:19
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QUOTE (typefish @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 15:44) *
Hey!

I'm someone who hasn't went to university, and is in a role that usually is dominated by uni-goers. wink.gif

Don't you wish you'd gone to university? You'd know the difference between "went" and "been" for a start. cool.gif

Horses for courses. If your role is usually dominated by uni-goers (whatever they are. Graduates, maybe), you might have other qualities that justify your employment in that role.
You could be cheaper, for a start.
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typefish
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 15:30
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Good spot with the typo.

I'm rushed off my feet today, so decided to have a couple of minutes on a PePiPoo break.

Have been doing what I've been doing since I was 13 though... so that might tip the scales a bit!
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Neil B
post Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 16:10
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Back to the necessity of imagination in reading; isn't it one of the elements of learning
how to figure things out?

I'm constantly gobsmacked by people in the decrim forum - 'get the Council pics'
"Where/how?" WTF?

People have learnt to expect an entitlement to be led, even in the most basic things.


--------------------
QUOTE (DancingDad @ Fri, 11 May 2018 - 12:30) *
Neil is good at working backwards.

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typefish
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:11
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I knew a guy who didn't know how to check the oil in his car.

Of course he was the guy who had 0.55mm of tread on both of his rear tyres, on a front wheel drive car.

I had to prompt him to check his tyres every so often, etc.
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DancingDad
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:51
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QUOTE (Neil B @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 17:10) *
Back to the necessity of imagination in reading; isn't it one of the elements of learning
how to figure things out?

I'm constantly gobsmacked by people in the decrim forum - 'get the Council pics'
"Where/how?" WTF?

People have learnt to expect an entitlement to be led, even in the most basic things.


Old sayings often have elements of truth.
Things like, if you don't make mistakes, you don't make anything.
The only real mistake is the one we don't learn from.
Necessity is the mother of invention.

Seems to me that the opportunity to make mistakes has been reduced and reduced, various Elf and Apeknee initiatives to reduce risk if nothing else.
Can't have competitive sports or games. Can't have anything remotely dangerous. Can't get work back with bad comments as it may traumatise.
There are many examples.

The little darlins do not realise they are making mistakes so never learn from them.
And have no need to try harder as failing is not an option, it's only a word.
When things go wrong, it is never their fault.
And too many, often in high places, willing to join in the culture that always has to have someone to blame, except themselves.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 08:53
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glasgow_bhoy
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 12:25
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QUOTE (seank @ Tue, 10 Oct 2017 - 13:57) *
I find myself wondering what has happened to education in the UK.
I seek to recruit graduate engineers to help designing powertrain systems for automotive applications, including engines, gearboxes and steering systems.
We employ just over 600 people in the UK.
I recently stopped employing UK graduates, finding them innumerate, illiterate and with a "benefits" culture where they want anything available, but want to offer nothing in return. This is despite most of them possessing glowing certificates from their universities.

Nothing happened to education in the UK. People just don't want to put up with the sh*t so many employers seem to try and get away with.

I'll do a job and perform in it according to the package I receive. Pay me for 40 hours a week and I'll do 40 hours a week. Expect me to do 50 and we're going to have a problem. If I'm told the role is Monday-Friday and you want me to work a Saturday, we're going to have a problem, unless there is some kind of decent recompense. Of course, if the employer is flexible with me, I'll be equally as flexible with them. Instruct me in an autocratic manner and I'll work the way you want me to, but I'll quash any initiative I may actually be beneficial to the business.

Pay me a poor salary and I'll not put in the effort. Pay me the going rate and I'll work conscientiously. Pay me well and I'll go over and above.

If your finding that all your UK graduate applicants are illiterate and innumerate, perhaps you need to offer a better deal or find a way to sell the job to a higher calibre of applicant. The benefits culture of wanting more than just a salary should not be a bad thing though- staff benefits are worth more to many than the actual salary. To work in a role without flexi-time again I'd expect to be paid at least 20% more than what I'm paid now in a role with flexi-time. I value health insurance, meal allowance and my personal development hours.

IMO graduates haven't got worse- people just expect better treatment in todays world.
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typefish
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 16:05
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:25) *
I'll do a job and perform in it according to the package I receive. Pay me for 40 hours a week and I'll do 40 hours a week. Expect me to do 50 and we're going to have a problem.


I have a friend who works down in London - his contract is 9-5 yet he usually leaves at say, 7. Those two hours are unpaid.

If I was in his position, I'd be leaving the office at 5:01... but I suspect I'd not be long in that job!
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DancingDad
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 16:57
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:25) *
........If your finding that all your UK graduate applicants are illiterate and innumerate, perhaps you need to offer a better deal or find a way to sell the job to a higher calibre of applicant. The benefits culture of wanting more than just a salary should not be a bad thing though- staff benefits are worth more to many than the actual salary. To work in a role without flexi-time again I'd expect to be paid at least 20% more than what I'm paid now in a role with flexi-time. I value health insurance, meal allowance and my personal development hours.

IMO graduates haven't got worse- people just expect better treatment in todays world.


While I take your point on wages reflecting the job and performance, finding graduates who are literate and numerate is not as easy as you may believe.
Even when, I assume, Sean is looking for Engineering graduates who you would expect to be at least numerate and be able to write a report.

Which takes me back 20 odd years, nearer 30 thinking on it, when I went for one job interview.
Seemed to go well, got on well with the interviewer who would be my boss if I was successful.
Then asked to do something which I had never come across in an interview, spend half an hour with a blank sheet of paper and write a report or letter and do a short maths test.
Wasn't an issue, did it, not too much problem. Just a surprise.
I got the job and curious, asked why.
The answer was that they had actually employed two guys plus interviewed loads more for the position.
None of them could write a simple report, write a letter to a client or cope with anything more then basic maths.
That was a senior engineering position, graduate level plus experience.

I don't think it's got better.

This post has been edited by DancingDad: Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 17:01
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seank
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 19:20
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We pay new starters £62,000 basic salary. There is an 8% annual salary bonus each year, provided performance targets are met (personal and team).
There is an on-site gym.
There is a final salary pension, based on the best 3 of the final 10 years salary.
We have Bupa for the candidate and family.
We offer staff discounts of 40% on *** cars.
We offer professional training and development as long as universities and such bodies agree that it is in the candidate's educational interest to proceed.
We offer international relocation within the Group and full relocation expenses and a £10,000 bursary to pay for furnishings in the new location.

If you're telling me that you can't add up, write a comprehensible report, or will depart 1 minute after your official leaving time (whatever that might be), you won't get a job here.
I admit that I tend to disregard someone's work, if I read basic spelling or arithmetical errors. I really can't help that. It winds me up and I tend to ignore that person's submission. My failing, I know.
I see far fewer such errors in European candidates and despair about indigenous people. I employed UK teachers to overcome this, with remedial classes. The teachers were even worse.
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glasgow_bhoy
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 19:25
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QUOTE (typefish @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 17:05) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:25) *
I'll do a job and perform in it according to the package I receive. Pay me for 40 hours a week and I'll do 40 hours a week. Expect me to do 50 and we're going to have a problem.


I have a friend who works down in London - his contract is 9-5 yet he usually leaves at say, 7. Those two hours are unpaid.

If I was in his position, I'd be leaving the office at 5:01... but I suspect I'd not be long in that job!

It is a culture which happened at my last workplace- I didn't like it, so found somewhere 'fairer' to work quickly. I was on a better salary in the old job, but broken down to hourly pay, I was £2 an hour better off going somewhere with a lower salary but less hours.

Unless I own the company, I won't be giving my time away for less than my contracted rate.

QUOTE (DancingDad @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 17:57) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 13:25) *
........If your finding that all your UK graduate applicants are illiterate and innumerate, perhaps you need to offer a better deal or find a way to sell the job to a higher calibre of applicant. The benefits culture of wanting more than just a salary should not be a bad thing though- staff benefits are worth more to many than the actual salary. To work in a role without flexi-time again I'd expect to be paid at least 20% more than what I'm paid now in a role with flexi-time. I value health insurance, meal allowance and my personal development hours.

IMO graduates haven't got worse- people just expect better treatment in todays world.


While I take your point on wages reflecting the job and performance, finding graduates who are literate and numerate is not as easy as you may believe.
Even when, I assume, Sean is looking for Engineering graduates who you would expect to be at least numerate and be able to write a report.

In engineering I'd hope they were better at maths than report writing, but agree a graduate should be more than capable of both.

Those capable of both are out there- perhaps those who Sean classes as being capable of both are underselling themselves taking up one of his positions if the quality of other candidates is so low tongue.gif
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seank
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 19:39
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QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 20:25) *
SNIP
Those capable of both are out there- perhaps those who Sean classes as being capable of both are underselling themselves taking up one of his positions if the quality of other candidates is so low tongue.gif

There is no shortage of really good candidates. Exceptionally bright people.
Just not from the UK.
Anyone would think we are just a few tiny islands "pushing above our weight".
After Brexit, you can relaunch British Leyland. The Allegro and Marina should sell well. Don't want Johnnie Foreigner and his Jap-Crap Honda, Toyota and Nissan, let alone BMW, Mercedes or my stuff.
The UK can be a theme park, with Buck House, Beefeaters, aircraft carriers with no aircraft and royals without a brain cell between them.
In the space of 2 generations, the UK has gone from world leader to third-world. Thanks teachers.
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typefish
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 21:34
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QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 20:39) *
QUOTE (glasgow_bhoy @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 20:25) *
SNIP
Those capable of both are out there- perhaps those who Sean classes as being capable of both are underselling themselves taking up one of his positions if the quality of other candidates is so low tongue.gif

There is no shortage of really good candidates. Exceptionally bright people.
Just not from the UK.
Anyone would think we are just a few tiny islands "pushing above our weight".
After Brexit, you can relaunch British Leyland. The Allegro and Marina should sell well. Don't want Johnnie Foreigner and his Jap-Crap Honda, Toyota and Nissan, let alone BMW, Mercedes or my stuff.
The UK can be a theme park, with Buck House, Beefeaters, aircraft carriers with no aircraft and royals without a brain cell between them.
In the space of 2 generations, the UK has gone from world leader to third-world. Thanks teachers.


I don't think it's just the teachers.

Is it economically viable to make cheap cars in the UK any more?
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seank
post Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 22:48
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It's not possible to make anything efficiently in the UK any more.
Taxes too high, public sector too large.
I cannot think of a single public sector operation that is world best. Can you?
NHS. 1.7 million employees. £140 billion cost per year. Worst health outcomes in Europe for cancer, cardiac and paediatric care. Hospitals so bad (mortality) that they have to change the name (Stafford Hospital. Goole & North Lincs 2nd time in "Special measures"Only such Trust in the whole UK)
Firemen. Paid to sleep all night, followed by private sector jobs.
Teachers delivering students graded 26th place in international tables.
Councils. Nightmare. Look at bin collection restrictions.
Police. Shoot Jean Paul de Menezez in the head 6 times at a tube station. For doing nothing. Alter Hillsborough witness statements. Push innocent news vendor over and kill him. Take bribes from News Corp. Beat miners to a pulp at Orgreave.
BBC. Paedophilia covered up. Dropped Newsnight exposure and promoted Jimmy Savile. No comment about Savile, Gary Glitter, Jonathon King, Stuart Hall, Rolf Harris.

The UK public sector is a disgrace.
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fedup2
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 07:43
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Why not DNA test kids at school,save them being confused?

http://metro.co.uk/2017/09/07/primary-scho...ll-are-6910706/

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kommando
post Thu, 12 Oct 2017 - 08:20
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We do seem to be losing the plot in the UK.

If being middle class gives you advantages then surely the best way is to make it easy to become middle class, not to remove all the advantages and so provide no incentives to even get out of bed in the morning.

Social mobility has ground to a halt in the UK, my parents left school at 14 and 16 respectively and went to work in a factory and a repair shop. They wanted their kids to do well so both worked all the hours they could get, we were taught to read and write before we went to primary school.

We all went to grammar schools by passing the 11+ and went on to university and are now all 'Middle Class' and one of us was a director of Blackberry during its heyday and I was a Purchasing director for an Automotive supplier.

Could this happen today ?

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JagDriver
post Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 13:00
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What really irks me is that this is all known, yet those paid (via our taxes) do nothing. When one steps out of line they are vilified (I'm thinking of T May wanting to bring back Grammar schools).
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DancingDad
post Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 20:40
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QUOTE (JagDriver @ Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 14:00) *
What really irks me is that this is all known, yet those paid (via our taxes) do nothing. When one steps out of line they are vilified (I'm thinking of T May wanting to bring back Grammar schools).


Shock horror.

You can't have a small proportion of children, obviously from the wealthy who can afford extra tuition, given a jump start with a higher standard of education simply because they are bright enough to cope with it !!!
(There is some sarcasm there BTW)

We have grammar schools where I live.
Oversubscribed by a significant amount against places available.
So it is not enough to do well in the 11 plus, the kid has to be in the top 10% (if not 5% or higher) of applicants.
My lad managed to get into one.
We are not rich by any means and nor were the majority of parents whose kids went there. They were blessed with bright kids and guilty of wanting the best education for them.
So did get them additional tuition.
And there in lies the error of many.

Some, as we did, got the lad a tutor to help the lad work though typical 11 plus papers and guide him in how to answer. Fair enough, we worked with him at home as well and TBH, if the kid hasn't seen an 11 plus paper, they are going to struggle so need something.
Those kids did well, thriving in a regime that was geared towards the brightest, with high expectations of them from the school, help if they were struggling but no leeway for slacking.

Others, pour all their efforts and the kid's, into swatting, force feeding knowledge in.
Many of those kids struggled, they did not have the inherent intelligence to cope with the pressures and expectations within a grammar school environment.
Some dropping out, some being dropped, none thriving or being able to really benefit from the opportunity. IMO would have been far better off in a comprehensive.

Grammar schools are seen as elitist and cannot have that can we?
But for the life of me I cannot see why the brightest of kids cannot get a chance in an environment where they can learn without being dragged down to the lowest common denominators in the class.




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andy_foster
post Thu, 19 Oct 2017 - 22:06
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QUOTE (seank @ Wed, 11 Oct 2017 - 20:39) *
In the space of 2 generations, the UK has gone from world leader to third-world. Thanks teachers.


If I tell you what "third world" means, can I have a £62k job?


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Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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