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Private parking cos and 'unreadable' number plates
ohnoes
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 10:36
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Hello-

Hypothetical question.

A person leaves their car in a 'private car park'.

The plates are either obscured using something that locks over the plate, or they are completely removed.

Would the PPC have any recourse/ability to issue this vehicle an invoice?


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post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 10:36
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peterguk
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 10:41
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QUOTE (ohnoes @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 11:36) *
Would the PPC have any recourse/ability to issue this vehicle an invoice?


How will they find the RK?


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The Rookie
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 11:06
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Ignoring the fact a criminal offence is being committed?


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seank
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 11:23
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:06) *
Ignoring the fact a criminal offence is being committed?

Here we go again.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115500&hl=

Can you please tell me where the law states that a vehicle is required to display number plates in a private car park?
I discussed this before. If I cover my number plates upon entry and exit to and from such a car park and before I join a public road, am I committing any offence?
If so, which offence, please?

This post has been edited by seank: Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 11:25
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superSmiffy
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:23
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QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:06) *
Ignoring the fact a criminal offence is being committed?

Here we go again.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115500&hl=

Can you please tell me where the law states that a vehicle is required to display number plates in a private car park?
I discussed this before. If I cover my number plates upon entry and exit to and from such a car park and before I join a public road, am I committing any offence?
If so, which offence, please?



Perhaps this: section 11 The Fraud Act 2006

CPS advice here:
Obtaining services dishonestly (Section 11)
The defendant:

obtains for himself or another;
services;
dishonestly;
knowing the services are made available on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made for or in respect of them or that they might be; and
avoids or intends to avoid payment in full or in part.
This offence replaces obtaining services by deception in Section 1 of the Theft Act 1978 which is repealed by the Act.

The defendant must have the necessary intention at the time that the service is obtained (section 11 (2) ©).

In many cases, the defendant will also have committed an offence under Section 2 of the Act by making a false representation that payment will be made or made in full. Prosecutors must decide which offence better reflects the criminality involved. The maximum sentence for the Section 11 offence is five years' imprisonment.
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southpaw82
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 13:17
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QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:23) *
Can you please tell me where the law states that a vehicle is required to display number plates in a private car park?
I discussed this before. If I cover my number plates upon entry and exit to and from such a car park and before I join a public road, am I committing any offence?
If so, which offence, please?

Regulations 5 and 6 of The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001 require the plates to be fitted. Can you point out the exemption for being in a car park (parts of which may be a road)?


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ohnoes
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 13:38
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QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 13:23) *
QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:06) *
Ignoring the fact a criminal offence is being committed?

Here we go again.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115500&hl=

Can you please tell me where the law states that a vehicle is required to display number plates in a private car park?
I discussed this before. If I cover my number plates upon entry and exit to and from such a car park and before I join a public road, am I committing any offence?
If so, which offence, please?



Perhaps this: section 11 The Fraud Act 2006

CPS advice here:
Obtaining services dishonestly (Section 11)
The defendant:

obtains for himself or another;
services;
dishonestly;
knowing the services are made available on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made for or in respect of them or that they might be; and
avoids or intends to avoid payment in full or in part.
This offence replaces obtaining services by deception in Section 1 of the Theft Act 1978 which is repealed by the Act.

The defendant must have the necessary intention at the time that the service is obtained (section 11 (2) ©).

In many cases, the defendant will also have committed an offence under Section 2 of the Act by making a false representation that payment will be made or made in full. Prosecutors must decide which offence better reflects the criminality involved. The maximum sentence for the Section 11 offence is five years' imprisonment.


The terms and conditions of most private car parks do not specify that a number plate must be displayed, so how would one be obtaining the service dishonestly if you complied with the other requirements?



QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:06) *
Ignoring the fact a criminal offence is being committed?

Here we go again.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115500&hl=

Can you please tell me where the law states that a vehicle is required to display number plates in a private car park?
I discussed this before. If I cover my number plates upon entry and exit to and from such a car park and before I join a public road, am I committing any offence?
If so, which offence, please?


Does that mean cars in showrooms without plates are also committing a criminal offence?


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PCNs sucessfully contested with the help of this forum:
Newham 1/1
Enfield 1/1

PPC successfully contested with the help of this forum:
1/1
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superSmiffy
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 14:00
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QUOTE (ohnoes @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 14:38) *
QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 13:23) *
QUOTE (seank @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:23) *
QUOTE (The Rookie @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 12:06) *
Ignoring the fact a criminal offence is being committed?

Here we go again.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=115500&hl=

Can you please tell me where the law states that a vehicle is required to display number plates in a private car park?
I discussed this before. If I cover my number plates upon entry and exit to and from such a car park and before I join a public road, am I committing any offence?
If so, which offence, please?



Perhaps this: section 11 The Fraud Act 2006

CPS advice here:
Obtaining services dishonestly (Section 11)
The defendant:

obtains for himself or another;
services;
dishonestly;
knowing the services are made available on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made for or in respect of them or that they might be; and
avoids or intends to avoid payment in full or in part.
This offence replaces obtaining services by deception in Section 1 of the Theft Act 1978 which is repealed by the Act.

The defendant must have the necessary intention at the time that the service is obtained (section 11 (2) ©).

In many cases, the defendant will also have committed an offence under Section 2 of the Act by making a false representation that payment will be made or made in full. Prosecutors must decide which offence better reflects the criminality involved. The maximum sentence for the Section 11 offence is five years' imprisonment.


The terms and conditions of most private car parks do not specify that a number plate must be displayed, so how would one be obtaining the service dishonestly if you complied with the other requirements?

Well it would be up to a court to determine whether the requirements of the act had been satisfied.

Would the court believe that a, the driver knew that the payment was to be made for parking but didn't pay and b, that the way in which the car park owner monitors parking relied upon a registration plate being visible and c, the driver concealed a registration plate required to be visible by The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001.
If the court believes that there is no reasonable doubt in that then a conviction is likely to occur.
If a driver standing trial for this wants to rely on the absence of the specific instructions that a number plate must be displayed when it is regulated that number plates must be displayed in any case then good luck. I have seen some daft decisions in court but I would hope none as daft as what you suggest would gain an acquittal.
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666
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 12:46
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QUOTE (ohnoes @ Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 14:38) *
The terms and conditions of most private car parks do not specify that a number plate must be displayed, so how would one be obtaining the service dishonestly if you complied with the other requirements?


Does that mean cars in showrooms without plates are also committing a criminal offence?


As southpaw82 has pointed out, there is a statutory requirement to display plates, so the Ts and Cs or the car park are irrelevant.

In showrooms, unregistered cars do not require plates. If the cars are registered, then an offence would appear to be committed, albeit not by the cars wink.gif
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fedup2
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 15:05
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Surely if the vehicle is on private land then there is no requirement to have number plates showing? The real question is what is private land isnt it?

Docks are one example,no plates,no tax,mot and run on red diesel.

If plates are always required if a vehicle is registered then the police could have a real field day at Car shows.

This post has been edited by fedup2: Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 15:07
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peterguk
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 16:23
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QUOTE (fedup2 @ Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 16:05) *
Surely if the vehicle is on private land then there is no requirement to have number plates showing?


Can't see any exemption for private land:

The Road Vehicles (Display of Registration Marks) Regulations 2001

Fixing of rear registration plates: vehicles registered on or after the relevant date

5.—(1) This regulation applies to vehicles, other than works trucks, road rollers and agricultural machines, first registered on or after the relevant date.

(2) A registration plate must be fixed on the rear of—

(a)the vehicle, or

(b)where the vehicle is towing a trailer, the trailer, or

©where the vehicle is towing more than one trailer, the rearmost trailer.

(3) Where a vehicle (or, in a case where the plate is required to be fixed on a trailer, that trailer) has been constructed so as to satisfy the requirements of the relevant type-approval directive, whether or not it is required by law to satisfy them, the plate may be fixed in the space provided in accordance with those requirements but if it is not so fixed it must be fixed in the manner required by paragraph (5).

(4) Except as provided in paragraph (3) the plate must be fixed in the manner required by paragraph (5).

(5) This paragraph requires the plate to be fixed—

(a)vertically or, where that is not reasonably practicable, in a position as close to the vertical as is reasonably practicable, and

(b)in such a position that in normal daylight the characters of the registration mark are easily distinguishable from every part of a relevant area having the diagonal length specified in paragraph (6).

(6) The diagonal length of the relevant area is—

(a)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is at least 57 millimetres, 22 metres,

(b)in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is 50 millimetres, 21.5 metres,

©in the case of a mark having characters the width of which is 44 millimetres, 18 metres.


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fedup2
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 16:46
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"The Road Vehicles"......

Which suggests that thats the regs on a ROAD.

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peterguk
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:08
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QUOTE (fedup2 @ Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:46) *
"The Road Vehicles"......

Which suggests that thats the regs on a ROAD.


Suggestions are not legislation.


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southpaw82
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:28
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QUOTE (fedup2 @ Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:46) *
"The Road Vehicles"......

Which suggests that thats the regs on a ROAD.

The legislation doesn't specify whether it applies to a road or not so the starting point is that it doesn't. If an argument is to be advanced that it is limited then some grounds have to be put forward for that interpretation. AF has done so, albeit I don't agree with all of his arguments.


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666
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:36
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 18:08) *
QUOTE (fedup2 @ Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:46) *
"The Road Vehicles"......

Which suggests that thats the regs on a ROAD.


Suggestions are not legislation.


... and in any event it doesn't suggest that. The adjective "road" clearly applies to the vehicle, not its location. Simple English.

My car is - by any sensible definition - a road vehicle. When I drive it into a private car park it remains a road vehicle. It does not magically transmogrify into something else (least of all an "off-road" vehicle).
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The Rookie
post Sat, 30 Sep 2017 - 17:36
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I didn't know a road vehicle stopped being a road vehicle when it was parked in a private car park.......


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

S172's
Rookies 1-0 Kent

Council PCN's
Rookies 1-0 Warwick
Rookies 1-0 Birmingham

PPC PCN's
Rookies 8-0 PPC's
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kommando
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 13:42
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From the DVLA leaflet on voluntary registration of off road vehicles.

QUOTE
You will be given a registration number but as long as
the vehicle is not used or kept on the public road you
do not have to display a number plate on the vehicle.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/syste...oad-vehicle.pdf
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peterguk
post Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 14:47
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QUOTE (kommando @ Mon, 2 Oct 2017 - 14:42) *
voluntary registration of off road vehicles.


So irrelevant to this thread...


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