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Upcoming Mersey Toll., Not sure how they will play it......
Goose
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 18:03
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Not seen anything on here about this yet.
The new Mersey crossing is due to open soon, and when it does the new and the old bridge will be tolled, probably causing lots of congestion in the surrounding towns!
The Merseyflow Facebook page keeps referring to fines, would it be a fine, and to who?
It is going to be an unmanned toll and locals can pay for a season ticket if you are eligible or if you live outside the borough ( the river runs between Widnes and runcorn which is the borough of Halton, one town effectively) you can register and get a sticker, which looks like some sort of RFID chip, but unregistered I assume will.use ANPR .
I think it's similar to the Dartford crossing, and am wondering if anyone will know what legislation will be in place and what sort of cock ups to expect?

The main question that I thought I asked bit it cocked up is, who would be responsible for the fine/charge the driver, the owner or the.keeper? And under what legislation.
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post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 18:03
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DancingDad
post Sun, 24 Sep 2017 - 18:44
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http://www.merseygateway.co.uk/byelaws/

Any help?
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The Rookie
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 06:14
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No penalty regime in the byelaws, so the only recourse is straight to court and a fine.


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Goose
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 17:17
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Cheers dancing dad. I had asked on the Mersey gateway Facebook page and just before I read this they answered that the keeper is liable,the bylaws say driver. Can see trouble ahead!
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Fredd
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 17:57
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I suspect that just about any corporate social media team comprises little more than a bunch of disillusioned meeja studies graduates, so in this case I wouldn't count on them being aware of the subtle distinction between keeper and driver.


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peodude
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 18:38
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And with the Birkenhead and Wallasey tunnels also having tolls, there is a hell of a detour if you don't want to pay tolls.

12 minutes from Birkenhead to Liverpool via tolls

OR

1hr 12 mins via no tolls using 4 motorways.
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DancingDad
post Mon, 25 Sep 2017 - 22:57
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I was surprised to read in the bylaws that drivers must pay before leaving bridge.
Which suggests toll booths and delays at busy periods.
Less chance of people not paying mind you.
Would have thought the Dart Toll model would have been used.
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Esmerobbo
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 07:50
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There are no toll booths if you don't register you can pay at their office, by phone or at any shop using payzone up to midnight on the day you use the crossing.
If you register you can pre load your account or pay online as you use the bridge.

In my case I have registered my blue badge which cost £5 but runs till my badge expires, then it will cost £5 for another 3 years.

Certain Halton council tax bands also qualify to register for free crossings.

I cant see any congestion problems as the new crossing is 3 lanes both ways with much better approaches and exits, the old bridge is closing when the new one is open to be worked on when it reopens it will go back to it's original one lane each way with cycle lanes and wider pathways.
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Raxiel
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 09:24
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QUOTE (Esmerobbo @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 08:50) *
There are no toll booths if you don't register you can pay at their office, by phone or at any shop using payzone up to midnight on the day you use the crossing.
If you register you can pre load your account or pay online as you use the bridge.

In my case I have registered my blue badge which cost £5 but runs till my badge expires, then it will cost £5 for another 3 years.

Certain Halton council tax bands also qualify to register for free crossings.

I cant see any congestion problems as the new crossing is 3 lanes both ways with much better approaches and exits, the old bridge is closing when the new one is open to be worked on when it reopens it will go back to it's original one lane each way with cycle lanes and wider pathways.


I was about to correct you on this, because most of the expressway has two lanes each way, but you're right, there are slip roads immediately north and south of the crossing that add another lane. Four years working on that scheme and I just learned something new!

It's also higher speed - Merseylink get measured on journey times, so there's an incentive to keep traffic flowing.

That said, last time I checked they were a bit behind schedule, so I wouldn't be surprised if they open it with roadworks still in place. Depends if the sanction for missing the journey time target is less than the (pretty steep) damages for opening late!

The tolls may not be popular, but it was a £2bn scheme that would never have gone ahead without them, and they're still cheaper than burning fuel to go the long route.

This post has been edited by Raxiel: Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 09:49
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DancingDad
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 11:41
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QUOTE (Raxiel @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 10:24) *
.......The tolls may not be popular, but it was a £2bn scheme that would never have gone ahead without them, and they're still cheaper than burning fuel to go the long route.


That was the argument with the M6 Toll.....which is still largely empty while the M6 itself has also been "upgraded" to a smart motorway, with 4 lanes each way at peak times.....
And is still packed solid with drivers preferring to burn fuel in jams, take longer but not pay the toll.
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Raxiel
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 13:13
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 12:41) *
QUOTE (Raxiel @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 10:24) *
.......The tolls may not be popular, but it was a £2bn scheme that would never have gone ahead without them, and they're still cheaper than burning fuel to go the long route.


That was the argument with the M6 Toll.....which is still largely empty while the M6 itself has also been "upgraded" to a smart motorway, with 4 lanes each way at peak times.....
And is still packed solid with drivers preferring to burn fuel in jams, take longer but not pay the toll.


Which is why they are putting restrictions on the old bridge too. Unpopular of course, people never like to pay for what they're used to getting for free. And the extra cost of wasted fuel is nothing like the visceral feel of giving your cash to the Troll.

But something had to be done. The old bridge is way over capacity and that isn't likely to get better. The refurbishment that will be possible once the traffic is on the new bridge is sorely needed. I don't think it will be quite the same though, its more than just the new bridge its several kilometres of new or upgraded expressway with several new junctions (which is the bit I was involved in).

You could argue it should have been paid for out of central government funds, like HS2, rather than by tolls, but that would have delayed it a decade at least, if not indefinitely, either way that ship has long since sailed.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 15:17
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 12:41) *
QUOTE (Raxiel @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 10:24) *
.......The tolls may not be popular, but it was a £2bn scheme that would never have gone ahead without them, and they're still cheaper than burning fuel to go the long route.


That was the argument with the M6 Toll.....which is still largely empty while the M6 itself has also been "upgraded" to a smart motorway, with 4 lanes each way at peak times.....
And is still packed solid with drivers preferring to burn fuel in jams, take longer but not pay the toll.

Trouble is the M6 Toll (remember when it was the BNRR?) time/cost balance just doesn't make any sense, the time saving for the Mersey crossing is greater by a long way (2 to 3 times the saving which on the M6 is rarely more than 20 minutes) and as I understand it the toll will be cheaper so its more attractive.


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DancingDad
post Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 21:30
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QUOTE (The Rookie @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 16:17) *
........Trouble is the M6 Toll (remember when it was the BNRR?) time/cost balance just doesn't make any sense, the time saving for the Mersey crossing is greater by a long way (2 to 3 times the saving which on the M6 is rarely more than 20 minutes) and as I understand it the toll will be cheaper so its more attractive.

20 minutes?
It can take twice that long to get from Spaghetti to Great Bar at the wrong time.
Let alone from Junction 4(A??) where you leave M6 south of Birmingham to join the toll all the way to Junction 11, where toll rejoins... or vice versa.

When both are flowing, there is no advantage to using the toll.
But when the M6 jams..... And that happens day after day.
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Esmerobbo
post Wed, 27 Sep 2017 - 04:49
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I am old enough to remember them saying when widening the old bridge in 1974/77 "this is a temporary measure until the new crossing is built" 40 years temporary.
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The Rookie
post Wed, 27 Sep 2017 - 11:47
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QUOTE (DancingDad @ Tue, 26 Sep 2017 - 22:30) *
20 minutes?
It can take twice that long to get from Spaghetti to Great Bar at the wrong time.

Journey time and time saved are two different things, you can't say its taken 40 minutes on the M6 and so I would have saved 40 minutes on the M6 Toll, and it was an 'average' for obvious reasons.

To do that journey via the M6 toll is listed at 37 minutes (Google map), so that would be a 3 minute saving if you want to use that example.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Goose
post Fri, 29 Sep 2017 - 16:03
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The last time I used the m6toll, accidentally as I had changed my sat nav as it was only a 2 minutes time saving, my sat nav somehow redirected me and I wasn't concentrating.! It cost me £10in my t4 van, and took 5 four minutes queuing to pay!
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Umkomaas
post Sun, 1 Oct 2017 - 20:08
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In addition to feral VCS being at large, here’s one more reason to avoid Liverpool John Lennon Airport.

Manchester is so much more customer friendly, and for most travellers in the region, just as accessible, and with many fewer risks.
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