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LDK Security group - Parking appeal, Charge for Obstructive parking
RyannX
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 10:51
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Hi there everyone, first post on here so let me know if I missed out any details.

I've received a parking charge notice from the company LDK Security group ltd. It states that they have provided clear evidence for the contravention of "obstructive parking". However they have not gave me any sort of reasoning as to why I have parked "obstructively" the have simply provided photos.

The car park in question is a private overflow car park to the Hospital at Durham and has no designated parking bays painted or outlined, it is simply a dusty area with a fence around it with a pay and display machine. There were no signs stating that I couldn't park here. I had a valid ticket displayed in the windscreen of my car and wasn't blocking any sort of route around the car park or blocking any other cars in. The only thing that there may be a problem with is that my rear tyre is slightly on the edge of a traffic cone (Which had been moved since the last time I was there)

Photo links below

http://imageshack.com/a/img922/3011/HUhges.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/6051/lh1QRr.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img922/2317/t5Y7to.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img921/7968/dBG6Ch.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img924/4313/6ZTxHl.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img923/2715/LtPgBV.jpg
http://imageshack.com/a/img921/1161/FPn92J.jpg

Thanks in advance!
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post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 10:51
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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:31
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There's no definition of 'obstructive parking' per se. Looks like a money-making game to me... Signs? All subjective opinion it appears...

What stage are you at?


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RyannX
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:33
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:31) *
There's no definition of 'obstructive parking' per se. Looks like a money-making game to me... Signs? All subjective opinion it appears...

What stage are you at?


There's a sign up in the car park but there's nothing to my knowledge that states anything about obstructive parking, only the pay and display information.
I can have a look later on today when I call out.

I haven't proceeded with anything yet as I've been waiting a while for my registration to successfully go through on here to get some advice on what to do/ say in an appeal if that is what I should do.

Thanks
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Lynnzer
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:48
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I'm onto this place. I visited a couple of months ago when Mrs Lynnzer was at hospital and took all the pictures of relevant signs etc.
It's a gruesome place. I believe a guy in a van jumps out and tickets anyone, for any reason.

I'm guessing he did the same here. Was there a windscreen ticket? They don't operate ANPR and in any case it wouldn't be clever enough to see an "obstructive parking" event.

You should now wait until you get a Notice to Keeper through the post. No earlier than 28 days from the date of scam, and no pater than 60 days.

We'll take it from there but as mentioned already, there is no definition of obstructive parking on any signs, and no parking area markings of any sort so this would go down like a lead balloon if they were stupid enough to go all the way with it.

Under no circumstances contact them. Don't worry about the loss of discount. There's nothing to pay anyway


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The Asda shopping trolley parking ticket enthusiast
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RyannX
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:53
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:48) *
I'm onto this place. I visited a couple of months ago when Mrs Lynnzer was at hospital and took all the pictures of relevant signs etc.
It's a gruesome place. I believe a guy in a van jumps out and tickets anyone, for any reason.

I'm guessing he did the same here. Was there a windscreen ticket? They don't operate ANPR and in any case it wouldn't be clever enough to see an "obstructive parking" event.

You should now wait until you get a Notice to Keeper through the post. No earlier than 28 days from the date of scam, and no pater than 60 days.

We'll take it from there but as mentioned already, there is no definition of obstructive parking on any signs, and no parking area markings of any sort so this would go down like a lead balloon if they were stupid enough to go all the way with it.

Under no circumstances contact them. Don't worry about the loss of discount. There's nothing to pay anyway


No there was no windscreen ticket, I simply received the parking charge notice about a week and a half ago now through the post.

A guy in a van. Sounds legit haha!

Ok then should I just wait until the next letter comes through the post and see what that says then?

Thanks
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Lynnzer
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:07
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QUOTE (RyannX @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:53) *
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:48) *
I'm onto this place. I visited a couple of months ago when Mrs Lynnzer was at hospital and took all the pictures of relevant signs etc.
It's a gruesome place. I believe a guy in a van jumps out and tickets anyone, for any reason.

I'm guessing he did the same here. Was there a windscreen ticket? They don't operate ANPR and in any case it wouldn't be clever enough to see an "obstructive parking" event.

You should now wait until you get a Notice to Keeper through the post. No earlier than 28 days from the date of scam, and no pater than 60 days.

We'll take it from there but as mentioned already, there is no definition of obstructive parking on any signs, and no parking area markings of any sort so this would go down like a lead balloon if they were stupid enough to go all the way with it.

Under no circumstances contact them. Don't worry about the loss of discount. There's nothing to pay anyway


No there was no windscreen ticket, I simply received the parking charge notice about a week and a half ago now through the post.

A guy in a van. Sounds legit haha!

Ok then should I just wait until the next letter comes through the post and see what that says then?

Thanks

Sounds fishy now. This should have been a windscreen ticket. It may be a ghost ticketing exercise or they are taking a picture and using it as a sort of ANPR based event. Does it say anything about notice being given to the driver, or just names you as the keeper?
How long after the event did the ticket take to arrive?
Any chance you can post a picture of it with your personal details removed.

This post has been edited by Lynnzer: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:08


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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:36
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Looks suspiciously like a ghost ticket... No discount offered by any chance?

Might be worth paying Trading Standards a visit with this one.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Lynnzer
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:57
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:36) *
Looks suspiciously like a ghost ticket... No discount offered by any chance?

Might be worth paying Trading Standards a visit with this one.

It might look like a duck but it might not quack though. G24 did these. They took a hand-held photo and sent a NTK. So it's a sort of hybrid situation, if not a ghost ticket.


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ostell
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 13:05
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So how many days after the 18th of January did you receive the letter/NTK? Or what date is given on it.

"About" would not be good enough.

This post has been edited by ostell: Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 13:06
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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 13:20
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:57) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:36) *
Looks suspiciously like a ghost ticket... No discount offered by any chance?

Might be worth paying Trading Standards a visit with this one.

It might look like a duck but it might not quack though. G24 did these. They took a hand-held photo and sent a NTK. So it's a sort of hybrid situation, if not a ghost ticket.

Indeed, but the timing doesn't seem sufficient for keeper liability - but OP to confirm...


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RyannX
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 15:57
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Sorry i've been out all day, I'll post a photo of the letter once I get home and sorted and get on my laptop.

Thanks for all the advice so far!
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RyannX
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 17:27
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QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:07) *
QUOTE (RyannX @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:53) *
QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 11:48) *
I'm onto this place. I visited a couple of months ago when Mrs Lynnzer was at hospital and took all the pictures of relevant signs etc.
It's a gruesome place. I believe a guy in a van jumps out and tickets anyone, for any reason.

I'm guessing he did the same here. Was there a windscreen ticket? They don't operate ANPR and in any case it wouldn't be clever enough to see an "obstructive parking" event.

You should now wait until you get a Notice to Keeper through the post. No earlier than 28 days from the date of scam, and no pater than 60 days.

We'll take it from there but as mentioned already, there is no definition of obstructive parking on any signs, and no parking area markings of any sort so this would go down like a lead balloon if they were stupid enough to go all the way with it.

Under no circumstances contact them. Don't worry about the loss of discount. There's nothing to pay anyway


No there was no windscreen ticket, I simply received the parking charge notice about a week and a half ago now through the post.

A guy in a van. Sounds legit haha!

Ok then should I just wait until the next letter comes through the post and see what that says then?

Thanks

Sounds fishy now. This should have been a windscreen ticket. It may be a ghost ticketing exercise or they are taking a picture and using it as a sort of ANPR based event. Does it say anything about notice being given to the driver, or just names you as the keeper?
How long after the event did the ticket take to arrive?
Any chance you can post a picture of it with your personal details removed.


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Jlc
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 17:45
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It's a wind up surely?

Anyway, golden ticket to easy win at POPLA.

They've issued without NtD but fail to (and don't claim) keeper liability.

You have to appeal to them first (as keeper) that no contravention occurred - they'll be intransigent but have to issue a code upon rejection.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RyannX
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 20:17
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 17:45) *
It's a wind up surely?

Anyway, golden ticket to easy win at POPLA.

They've issued without NtD but fail to (and don't claim) keeper liability.

You have to appeal to them first (as keeper) that no contravention occurred - they'll be intransigent but have to issue a code upon rejection.

So what would be the best sort of appeal to send them?

Thanks
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SchoolRunMum
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 20:47
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One written recently about a non-POFA postal PCN. e.g. Smart Parking or CEL use rubbish NTKs like that.

So search Google for 'Smart Parking POPLA no keeper liability' or 'CEL POPLA no keeper liability' and look ONLY at 2016/2017 forum results from here or MSE.

Adapt one like that and show us.
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cabbyman
post Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 20:56
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This may help:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=107513


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RyannX
post Fri, 24 Feb 2017 - 13:43
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QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 20:47) *
One written recently about a non-POFA postal PCN. e.g. Smart Parking or CEL use rubbish NTKs like that.

So search Google for 'Smart Parking POPLA no keeper liability' or 'CEL POPLA no keeper liability' and look ONLY at 2016/2017 forum results from here or MSE.

Adapt one like that and show us.


I've briefly drafted an appeal letter as I am a bit rushed for time at the minute with kids etc. I've probably missed bits out or added bits I shouldn't (I've never written one of these before) Any help will be greatly appreciated.

The letter only states the reasons for the appeal, I'm a little unsure what to write to begin the letter and end etc.

Apologies for being a little nooby at this sort of thing.

1) No keeper liability.
The driver of the vehicle has not been identified. In order for the operator to transfer liability for the charge from the driver of the vehicle to the registered keeper, they must with the strict requirements set out in the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 (PoFA). This too was confirmed by Mr Greenslade, POPLA Lead Adjudicator. in page 8 of the 2015 POPLA Report:
''If POFA 2012 Schedule 4 is not complied with then keeper liability does not generally pass.''
In this case, no other party can be told to pay. I am the appellant throughout (as I am entitled to be), and as there has been no admission regarding who was driving, and no evidence has been produced, it has been held by POPLA on numerous occasions, that a parking charge cannot be enforced against a keeper without a valid Notice to Keeper. The burden of proof rests with the Operator to show that (as an individual) I have not complied with terms in place on the land and show that I am personally liable for their parking charge. They cannot.

This exact finding was made in September 2016, where POPLA Assessor Carly Law found:

''I must first consider whether I am confident that I know who the driver is, based on the evidence received. After considering the evidence, I am unable to confirm that the appellant is in fact the driver. As such, I must allow the appeal on the basis that the operator has failed to demonstrate that the appellant is the driver and therefore liable for the charge. As I am allowing the appeal on this basis, I do not need to consider the other grounds of appeal raised by the appellant. Accordingly, I must allow this appeal.''

2) Failure to receive notice within required timeframe
The Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 requires that the notice must be delivered to the keeper within 14 days of the Date of Issue. The first notice that I received arrived on the 5th February 2017, for the alleged event occurring on the 18th January 2017, and so does not comply with the required timeframe.

3) No clear explanation of alleged contravention
As there are no clear designated parking bays within the area of land, there is no viability as to how the driver of the car was parked “obstructively”. The photographs supplied by the company do not give any indication as to how it is to be obstructive in any way and no explanation was given in writing.

Thanks in advance
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Jlc
post Fri, 24 Feb 2017 - 14:01
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At this stage the point is to extract a POPLA code. It is almost certain they'll reject but have to issue the code...

If you want to go on the offensive a little you could throw in that you believe there was not reasonable cause for them to access the DVLA and they are possibly breaching the Data Protection Act by processing your information. You can add that you reserve the right to pursue this.

(Ideally you want them to cancel to save the hassle of a POPLA appeal)


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information, SAR=Subject Access Request

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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RyannX
post Fri, 24 Feb 2017 - 14:11
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QUOTE (Jlc @ Fri, 24 Feb 2017 - 14:01) *
At this stage the point is to extract a POPLA code. It is almost certain they'll reject but have to issue the code...

If you want to go on the offensive a little you could throw in that you believe there was not reasonable cause for them to access the DVLA and they are possibly breaching the Data Protection Act by processing your information. You can add that you reserve the right to pursue this.

(Ideally you want them to cancel to save the hassle of a POPLA appeal)


So I could just add something along the lines of "Should you obtain the registered keeper's data from the DVLA without reasonable cause (e.g. if you do not fully comply with the BPA Code of Practice in terms of signage at this site, for example) please take this as formal notice that I reserve the right to sue your company and the landowner/principal in your contract, for a sum not less than £250 for any Data Protection Act breach."

Here is a statement made by the area manager himself in an article published by the daily mail for another appeal that somebody had made:

"Scott Brunning, the North East area manager for LDK said the fine would not be scrapped.
Mr Brunning said: 'While I fully sympathise with Mr Hodges' circumstances, as I've lost family members through cancer myself, we cannot overturn the ticket because it was in breach of terms and conditions.
'If this was a hospital-controlled car park it would be different, but we have to act on the land owner's behalf, who we operate the car park on behalf of.
'It is not owned by the hospital. It is run by the rules and regulations of the land owner."

So he isn't the landowner, is that another grounds to appeal against?


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-22...l#ixzz4Zc2PgIWn
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


QUOTE (Lynnzer @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:57) *
QUOTE (Jlc @ Thu, 23 Feb 2017 - 12:36) *
Looks suspiciously like a ghost ticket... No discount offered by any chance?

Might be worth paying Trading Standards a visit with this one.

It might look like a duck but it might not quack though. G24 did these. They took a hand-held photo and sent a NTK. So it's a sort of hybrid situation, if not a ghost ticket.


Can you remember if the signage states anything about obstructive parking? I don't believe it does considering there are no bays to begin with

This post has been edited by RyannX: Fri, 24 Feb 2017 - 14:22
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The Older geezer
post Fri, 24 Feb 2017 - 14:41
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Also forewarned is forearmed.

Check planning permissions for the signs.
Im taking LDK and Lidl to court and one of my points is they had no Planning permissions for the signs in the car park.
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