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Parking Fine from ECP for overstaying by 1 min
Downtowngirl
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:16
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Hello

I am the registered keeper of a vehicle which received a parking ticket from Euro Car Parks on behalf of Lidl UK - the driver overstayed by 1 min (allocated time 90 mins) an appeal has been made to ECP on the basis that it contravenes section 13 of the BPA's COP of a 10 min grace period, but of course was turned down.

Next stop POPLA - a copy of the receipt has now come into my possession which clearly states that the transaction for the grocery shop in Lidl took place 6 minutes before the ticket was issued - this would have given the driver ample time to return to the vehicle before the allocated time of 90 mins was up - therefore should I argue that the equipment was not calibrated/synced?

Many thanks in advance for your sage wisdom on this matter.

UTG
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post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:16
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TMC Towcester
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:20
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Without knowing the driver's version of events, no-one can really comment! For 90 mins in Lidl, the receipt must be a very, very long one!

S/he might have shopped elsewhere before Lidl, might have paused for a chat, be less mobile than others etc etc. All this may be irrelevant - post up what you've received and go from there.
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DWMB2
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:25
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Has the driver tried contacting Lidl and asking them to cancel? If not, try that as well as a POPLA appeal. Was the driver's identity revealed in the initial appeal, or did you appeal as the keeper? Can we see the PCN too?

The grace period you mentioned is one point, but another is that the car was not parked for over 90 minutes - if this was an ANPR car park that takes a photo on entrance and exit, then you need to take into account the time spent finding a space and leaving the car park, neither of which are parking, and which would almost certainly take more than 1 minute. As with all POPLA appeals, you also want to mention signage if relevant and ECP's authority to issue parking charges on the site.

QUOTE
a copy of the receipt has now come into my possession which clearly states that the transaction for the grocery shop in Lidl took place 6 minutes before the ticket was issued - this would have given the driver ample time to return to the vehicle before the allocated time of 90 mins was up - therefore should I argue that the equipment was not calibrated/synced?

What makes you think the equipment was faulty? 6 minutes between paying for one's groceries and leaving a car park is not an unusually long amount of time.



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Downtowngirl
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:32
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Hi thanks for response - I was of the understanding that it's best not to disclose the driver's identity or is that irrelevant now?

On that particular day the driver conducted 2 shops - the first for a neighbour isolating from Covid and the second a fairly hefty (£133.17p) to be precise - this is where the receipt stated that the transaction took place 6 mins prior to the ticket being issued - which is what I'm thinking is the best basis for the appeal - 5 minutes is ample time to return to the car, pack up the shopping and drive off - therefore the overstay of 1 minute is unreliable and the issuer's equipment must not be calibrated or synched with Lidl's tills surely.

Thanks DWMB2

The ticket was issued on the screen of the car rather than an ANPR camera I can upload a photo of the PCN once I've worked out how to do that. The appeal to ECP was done as registered keeper not as a driver. Lidl have been contacted to get them to cancel it but they won't get involved.

This post has been edited by Downtowngirl: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 13:57
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DWMB2
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:38
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Use https://imgur.com/ or similar to upload photos. So as well as the driver receiving a windscreen ticket did the keeper receive a postal notice to keeper? If so let's see the postal notice too.


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Downtowngirl
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:39
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DWMB2





As with all POPLA appeals, you also want to mention signage if relevant and ECP's authority to issue parking charges on the site.

There is one sign directly as you enter the car park but that's impossible to read as you need to keep driving - you need to go back and look at it on foot to ensure you are aware of its content (this is a relatively new introduction - only approx 3 months)

How do you find out about ECP's authority to issue tickets?

Many thanks


QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:38) *
Use https://imgur.com/ or similar to upload photos. So as well as the driver receiving a windscreen ticket did the keeper receive a postal notice to keeper? If so let's see the postal notice too.


No just a window ticket - no postal ticket
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DWMB2
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:42
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QUOTE (Downtowngirl @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:39) *
How do you find out about ECP's authority to issue tickets?

By asking them to prove it at POPLA - there's some text about it here

QUOTE (Downtowngirl @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:39) *
No just a window ticket - no postal ticket

This could be your best angle - what exactly was the text of your appeal?


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TMC Towcester
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:42
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QUOTE (Downtowngirl @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:32) *
Hi thanks for response - I was of the understanding that it's best not to disclose the 'driver's' identity or is that irrelevant now?

On that particular day the driver conducted 2 shops - the first for a neighbour isolating from Covid and the second a fairly hefty (£133.17p) to be precise - this is where the receipt stated that the transaction took place 6 mins prior to the ticket being issued - which is what I'm thinking is the best basis for the appeal - 5 minutes is ample time to return to the car, pack up the shopping and drive off - therefore the overstay of 1 minute is unreliable and the issuer's equipment must not be calibrated or synched with Lidl's tills surely.


Unless the driver can 'prove' s/he went directly to the car, loaded and left there's no mileage in that at all - so what if one system is a minute out vs the shop?. £140s worth of shopping doesn't take 90 mins BTW...I do that regularly and am in/out in half that.....the shops aren't very large and the range narrow. Which store is it?

This post has been edited by TMC Towcester: Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:43
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Downtowngirl
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:53
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Attached Image


£140s worth of shopping doesn't take 90 mins BTW...I do that regularly and am in/out in half that.....the shops aren't very large and the range narrow. Which store is it?

That is debatable - especially if children are involved laugh.gif - but anyway perhaps an irrelevant defence - it's just 1 minute allegedly overstaying doesn't seem fair!

QUOTE (DWMB2 @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:42) *
QUOTE (Downtowngirl @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:39) *
How do you find out about ECP's authority to issue tickets?

By asking them to prove it at POPLA - there's some text about it here

QUOTE (Downtowngirl @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:39) *
No just a window ticket - no postal ticket

This could be your best angle - what exactly was the text of your appeal?



That the 1 minute overstay contravenes the BPA's COP section 13
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DWMB2
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 12:14
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QUOTE (Downtowngirl @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 11:53) *
That the 1 minute overstay contravenes the BPA's COP section 13

The exact text of the letter you sent please, not a summary (names etc. Redacted, nothing else)! I'm not trying to be pedantic, but depending what exactly you put in your appeal, the lack of postal PCN could be a key part of your appeal.


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Sheffield Dave
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 13:29
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Given that it's a windscreen ticket, it will just be a parking attendant likely taking photos 91 minutes apart. There will be no synchronisation with tills etc. Indeed, it doesn't matter much if the parking attendant's equipment was 5 minutes off, as long as it was consistently 5 minutes off. I.e. if the attendant took photos at 15:55 and 17:26 but the photos have timestamps on them of 16:00 and 17:31, then the car was still parked for 91 minutes. The business with the receipt time isn't likely to help you.

But you are completely right that if the signs offer 90 minutes parking (and there is nothing required by the signs which the driver failed to do, such a validate parking at the till), then a 91 minute stay is winnable by you at POPLA and/or at court.
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Downtowngirl
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 14:00
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It was ECP online appeal the wording was as follows.

As registered keeper of vehicle XXXX a PCN was issued on XXXXX alleging that the driver overstayed the allocated time by just one minute. This contravenes section 13.2 of the BPA's code of practice, which states..'If the making location is one where parking is normally permitted, you must allow the driver a reasonable grace period in addition to the parking event before enforcement action is taken. In such instances the grace period must be a minimum of ten minutes.'

I dispute the PCN on the grounds that the grace period was not adhered to.


QUOTE (Sheffield Dave @ Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 13:29) *
Given that it's a windscreen ticket, it will just be a parking attendant likely taking photos 91 minutes apart. There will be no synchronisation with tills etc. Indeed, it doesn't matter much if the parking attendant's equipment was 5 minutes off, as long as it was consistently 5 minutes off. I.e. if the attendant took photos at 15:55 and 17:26 but the photos have timestamps on them of 16:00 and 17:31, then the car was still parked for 91 minutes. The business with the receipt time isn't likely to help you.

But you are completely right that if the signs offer 90 minutes parking (and there is nothing required by the signs which the driver failed to do, such a validate parking at the till), then a 91 minute stay is winnable by you at POPLA and/or at court.


That sounds encouraging


Is this a good defence to use? As the registered keeper of the vehicle I haven't received anything in the post.

A compliant Notice to Keeper was never served - no Keeper Liability can apply.

This operator has not fulfilled the 'second condition' for keeper liability as defined in Schedule 4 and as a result, they have no lawful authority to pursue any parking charge from myself, as a registered keeper appellant. There is no discretion on this matter. If Schedule 4 mandatory documents are not served at all, or in time (or if the document omits any prescribed wording) then keeper liability simply does not apply.

The wording in the Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012 is as follows:

''Right to claim unpaid parking charges from keeper of vehicle:
4(1) The creditor has the right to recover any unpaid parking charges from the keeper of the vehicle. (2) The right under this paragraph applies only if

(a) the conditions specified in paragraphs 5, 6*, 11 and 12 (so far as applicable) are met;

*Conditions that must be met for purposes of paragraph 4:
6(1) 'The second condition is that the creditor (or a person acting for or on behalf of the creditor) - (a)has given a notice to driver in accordance with paragraph 7, followed by a notice to keeper in accordance with paragraph 8. This is re-iterated further 'If a notice to driver has been given, any subsequent notice to keeper MUST be given in accordance with paragraph 8.'

The NTK must have been delivered to the registered keeper's address within the 'relevant period' which is highlighted as a total of 56 days beginning with the day after that on which any notice to driver was given. As this operator has evidently failed to serve a NTK, not only have they chosen to flout the strict requirements set out in PoFA 2012, but they have consequently failed to meet the second condition for keeper liability. Clearly I cannot be held liable to pay this charge as the mandatory series of parking charge documents were not properly given.
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Dave65
post Fri, 5 Nov 2021 - 17:38
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Is the car park part of the Lidl store?

I seem to remember if so that in the contract Lidl do not allow their customers to be sued.
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Downtowngirl
post Sat, 6 Nov 2021 - 08:23
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Hi Dave65

Yes it's Lidl
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baroudeur
post Sat, 6 Nov 2021 - 11:06
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It may not apply in this case but.............

Considering the location of the Lidl store in Penzance which has an on-site parking attendant it may be records are kept of drivers leaving the site.

PS. I've just received birthday greetings from Lidl and a voucher for a free chocolate cookie. They are not so bad really!
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ostell
post Sat, 6 Nov 2021 - 11:56
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I've got that voucher as well. 2 visits and no chocolate cookies available
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Downtowngirl
post Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 09:17
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Good morning,

I'm keen to get my appeal to POPLA sorted - any more advice on best line to take - is the lack of notice in the post plus the contravention of grace period the best way forward? Also is there a template anywhere that I can use?

Many thanks

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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 11:06
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I thought you got a notice to keeper? I thought the issue was the ntk was not compliant, not that it was missing. Meaning of course, pofa compliance - lack of it - is point 1 of the appeal

The second is that they didn't allow sufficient grace period

Last is ALWAYS that they lack landholder authority. This means they're required to disclose their contract - which we love to see - or they lose.
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Downtowngirl
post Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 11:23
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QUOTE (nosferatu1001 @ Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 11:06) *
I thought you got a notice to keeper? I thought the issue was the ntk was not compliant, not that it was missing. Meaning of course, pofa compliance - lack of it - is point 1 of the appeal

The second is that they didn't allow sufficient grace period

Last is ALWAYS that they lack landholder authority. This means they're required to disclose their contract - which we love to see - or they lose.


thanks for response - The driver received a PCN on the car but as Registered Keeper I received nothing in the post. When you say not compliant is that what you mean? Sorry - complete newbie here.

This post has been edited by Downtowngirl: Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 11:25
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nosferatu1001
post Mon, 8 Nov 2021 - 11:27
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Ok so
- lack of notice to keeper at all means they cannot ho,d you liable as keeper. Point one. They have between day 29 and day 56,day of event is day 0, to get the notice to you. What day are we on?
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