Box Junction PCN, PCN DURING COVID19 |
Box Junction PCN, PCN DURING COVID19 |
Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 11:33
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#1
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 21 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,527 |
Wondering if anyone can help me with a PCN i recieved. I recieved a PCN for being in a box junction on the 15/1/20 but a PCN notice was not issued to me until the 27/2/20. Initially i can recall that PCN's have to be issued within 28 days of the incident. Is this the sam elaw that applies to box junction PCN's caught by a static camera?
Also, due to the current situaion with COVID-19 i had to return to Ireland before the PCN was sent out to my registered address in London to self-isaolate as i am classed as a vulnerable person. Due to this I did not get a chance to recieve the PCN notice through the post and altrenatively due to no reply the PCN was sent through the hire car company and to my companies finance team who recieved word on the 8th of April. The fine has now increased to £195 due to me not even knowing anything about the PCN until the 8th of April and I dont have to option to appeal online anymore. Do i have any grounds for an appeal to reduce the PCN down to the original amount due to the mess up wit hrecieving the PCN and how long it had taken to reach me? Any help is appreciated, Many thanks |
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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 11:33
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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 12:26
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 20,919 Joined: 22 Apr 2012 Member No.: 54,455 |
Althouhg there is a 28 day limit, the 1st PCN goes to the hire company who can then appeal it naming you as the hirer. A further 28 days is then allowed to issue the 2nd PCN to you, so it doesn't look out of time to me.
As you now have the Charge Certificate, you have to wait for the Order for Recovery, (you must make sure you get this). You then submit a Statutory Declaration that you did not receive the PCN. OK, you did eventually, but way outside the time period allowed you to pay or appeal. |
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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 12:42
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#3
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
What name is on the charge certificate and reissued PCN. If it's your company then it's not your PCN although company policy may make you pay for it.
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Tue, 21 Apr 2020 - 12:48
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Dates and documents are the first requisite
First PCN served on ---------------- (hire company on date --/--/---- PCN served on you co date --/--/---- Why did your company not advise you of this or pay it on time CC served on --------------------- you or your company date __/__/____ Lets Get the CC sorted then we can look at the contravention and any other appeal issues -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 10:38
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#5
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 21 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,527 |
Dates and documents are the first requisite First PCN served on ---------------- (hire company on date --/--/---- PCN served on you co date --/--/---- Why did your company not advise you of this or pay it on time CC served on --------------------- you or your company date __/__/____ Lets Get the CC sorted then we can look at the contravention and any other appeal issues PCN was issued to what i can only assume was my address in london after recieving my details from the hire car company on 27/2/20. Not sure when it was issued to the hire car company but the incident date was 15/1/20. CC served on co date 3/4/20 addressed to my company UK main office with my name within the address. My companies finance fleet then sent me the PCN increased by 50% on 8/4/20 by email. Which i awknowledged and tried to get in touch with the council about reduction but it was outside the time to appeal. I was told by a colleague of mine due to not being able to get an email or contact number for the council to post them an appeal but i assumed this would be rejected due to it saying online i could no longer appeal. It's a tricky situation that I've never experienced before so i am not sure what to do. |
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Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 11:16
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#6
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
Dates and documents are the first requisite First PCN served on ---------------- (hire company on date --/--/---- PCN served on you co date --/--/---- Why did your company not advise you of this or pay it on time CC served on --------------------- you or your company date __/__/____ Lets Get the CC sorted then we can look at the contravention and any other appeal issues PCN was issued to what i can only assume was my address in london after recieving my details from the hire car company on 27/2/20. Not sure when it was issued to the hire car company but the incident date was 15/1/20. CC served on co date 3/4/20 addressed to my company UK main office with my name within the address. My companies finance fleet then sent me the PCN increased by 50% on 8/4/20 by email. Which i awknowledged and tried to get in touch with the council about reduction but it was outside the time to appeal. I was told by a colleague of mine due to not being able to get an email or contact number for the council to post them an appeal but i assumed this would be rejected due to it saying online i could no longer appeal. It's a tricky situation that I've never experienced before so i am not sure what to do. You cannot assume that the PCN was served to your London address. It could only be served to the name and address supplied by the hire company and would have to be the same as that on the CC post documents -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 17:21
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#7
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
The PCN and CC go to the same address, so either the PCN was lost in the post or your company didn't pass it to you.
Is the company name printed in the address field of the CC? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Wed, 22 Apr 2020 - 17:43
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#8
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Member Group: Members Posts: 23,582 Joined: 12 Feb 2013 From: London Member No.: 59,924 |
Looks like the PCN was served to the company address before lockdown so no reason why it couldn't have been dealt with then. So either it was not received or company didn't deal with post. You need to ask if they have the PCN.
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 10:32
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#9
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 21 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,527 |
Looks like the PCN was served to the company address before lockdown so no reason why it couldn't have been dealt with then. So either it was not received or company didn't deal with post. You need to ask if they have the PCN. Okay, i have since got in touch with our finance fleet and looked through my emails. I recieved an email from my office reception on the 11/3/20 which was most likely my office recieving the PCN notice. Now i am a field engineer and I am only ever in the office for team meetings every few months. From the 8/3/20 i was no longer in my address at London and after a week at Univeristy returned home due to COVID-19. On the 20/3/20 i sent an email to reception asking could anything belonging to me in reception be posted to me as i was now working from home and they informed me they would post both the letter and a box containing work essentials. i recieved the box to my home address but no letter and then it brings me back to the point of not having a clue about the PCN until our finance fleet got in touch with me on the 8/3/20. Again tricky situation. Is the 5 day period between when i recieved the email from reception and when i was still in London helpful to the situation or the opposite? Also will thr Order of recovery be sent to the same address as all PCN's? in that case i will most likely recieve that late also.7 Thanks very much for the help, |
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 10:38
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#10
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Has the PCN been issued to you personally, or to your company?
-------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 11:08
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#11
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 21 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,527 |
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 11:23
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#12
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Has the PCN been issued to you personally, or to your company? Its sent to my company address with my name on it for processing. Is the company name in the address field of the PCN? And who hired the vehicle? -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:19
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#13
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New Member Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 21 Apr 2020 Member No.: 108,527 |
Has the PCN been issued to you personally, or to your company? Its sent to my company address with my name on it for processing. Is the company name in the address field of the PCN? And who hired the vehicle? Yes it starts with my company name, then my name, then my companies address. I hired the vehicle using our company hire car portal. |
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 14:58
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#14
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,068 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
What a mess.
As other posters have been trying to do....we need to know who's who in this saga. I think we're probably there, but just to dot the i's etc... This is the provision relied upon by the hirer: d)that the recipient is a vehicle-hire firm and— (i)the vehicle in question was at the material time hired from that firm under a hiring agreement; and (ii)the person hiring it had signed a statement of liability acknowledging his liability in respect of any penalty charge notice served in respect of any parking contravention involving the vehicle during the currency of the hiring agreement; So, who ticks (i) and (ii), you or your employer? If you, there's hope under the regs. If not, IMO there isn't. And have you or any other driver received a postal PCN in the past? Under what circumstances? |
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 15:22
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#15
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
The vehicle hiring agreement would tell a lot, but in general he who pays the piper calls the tune
-------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 15:47
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#16
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Member Group: Members Posts: 35,068 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
Agreed.
I suspect this is a framework contract between the hirer and the employer who authorises certain users to access the hire agreement and whose names then appear in the hirer's records to facilitate easier checking of invoices by the employer and possible internal charges to employees who've accessed the contract. |
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 16:33
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#17
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Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If the hire was done through a portal, I am sceptical that Hertz will hold a signed agreement that complies with the requirements of The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000. London12345 works for the company so he can act as an agent of the company and deal with the council.
I would challenge on two grounds: 1) Limitation, put the council to proof that the PCN is in time i.e. served within 28 days of the date of cancellation of the PCN to Hertz (I think they'll struggle if the PCN to Hertz was never cancelled) 2) Transfer of liability, put the council to proof that a compliant hire agreement has been provided (we've seen a few cases recently where the hire company just says the vehicle was hired by X and the council takes it at face value, without asking for a compliant agreement). -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
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Mon, 27 Apr 2020 - 17:58
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#18
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Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
If the hire was done through a portal, I am sceptical that Hertz will hold a signed agreement that complies with the requirements of The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000. London12345 works for the company so he can act as an agent of the company and deal with the council. I would challenge on two grounds: 1) Limitation, put the council to proof that the PCN is in time i.e. served within 28 days of the date of cancellation of the PCN to Hertz (I think they'll struggle if the PCN to Hertz was never cancelled) 2) Transfer of liability, put the council to proof that a compliant hire agreement has been provided (we've seen a few cases recently where the hire company just says the vehicle was hired by X and the council takes it at face value, without asking for a compliant agreement). +1 on both grounds -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
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