PePiPoo Helping the motorist get justice Support health workers

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

Meter destroyed?
misteral
post Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 12:16
Post #1


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Birmingham CC

Parked in Granville Street overnight, got a ticket 11.41am next day, 27/12/17. (Parked without clearly displaying a valid pay & display ticket or voucher)

There are 12 parking bays in a line, around 75 meters in total. At one end of the bays is a sign with arrow pointing right 'Pay at meter, Display Ticket'.


Attached Image



At the other end is a sign with the arrow pointing left with the same message.


Attached Image



In the middle is a what looks like it could be a destroyed meter but could actually be anything.


Attached Image



There are no indications anywhere in sight of the days or times when parking restrictions apply. I have since found out it is 8am to 6pm and free outwith these times and also on Sundays/Bank Holidays

Saw the CEO writing me a ticket. I asked him where I was meant to pay and he shrugged and pointed to another street, around the corner.

So what should one do here? Worth an appeal?


Cheers for any advice

This post has been edited by misteral: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 12:20
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
3 Pages V  < 1 2 3  
Start new topic
Replies (40 - 59)
Advertisement
post Fri, 29 Dec 2017 - 12:16
Post #


Advertise here!









Go to the top of the page
 
Quote Post
misteral
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 14:07
Post #41


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



TEC informed me I was not OOT and had until 16 May to respond. They have emailed me the TE9 form. I'll go over it and get back to you (brilliant) people with any questions.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 14:17
Post #42


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE (misteral @ Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 15:07) *
TEC informed me I was not OOT and had until 16 May to respond. They have emailed me the TE9 form. I'll go over it and get back to you (brilliant) people with any questions.


Oooh you lucky boy biggrin.gif

The Witness statement form is a simple check box and sign.
Box to tick says NTO not received.
Add an attached note to state correct postal address and a copy of a utility bill would do no harm
Once filled in can be emailed to TEC.
I would also copy to Birmingham CC.

Once TEC get the WS, they will inform council that CC must be cancelled, council can then send a new NTO (hence telling them correct address)
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 14:32
Post #43


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Sorry didn't see your message.

Ticked Box 1- I did not receive NTO/PCN

Will follow your advice re: BCC

thanks again

This post has been edited by misteral: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 - 14:52
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 10:15
Post #44


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Update (sorry no photos)

25/04-Email from TEC acknowledgement that TE9 had been received

25/04/ Sent VC5 to DVLA to change address

02/05-Received updated VC5 from DVLA

02/05- Received letter from TEC dated 27/04 stating that I had filed a Statutory Declaration/Witness Statement and instructing BCC to revoke their Order for Recovery of unpaid charges and that the Charge Certificate and the NTO/Enforcement Notice are to be cancelled

04/05- Received email from BCC which states

Traffic Management Act 2004

Penalty Charge Notice – BM1246xxxx
Dated – 27/12/2017
Location of Contravention – Granville Street City Centre

Thank you for your recent correspondence regarding the above mentioned Penalty
Charge Notice.

This charge has been unpaid for some months since the issue of the Penalty Charge
Notice. During this time, as required the Council has written to you on at least two
occasions, first sending a Notice to Owner and later a Charge Certificate.

No correspondence was received from you following these notices. The Notice to
Owner gave you the chance to make representations to the Council, saying why you
should not pay for the charge. No such representations were received by the
Council.

In view of the above, you are now required to either make a Statutory
Declaration, or make full payment. If one of the above is not received, then
processing will continue to a Bailiff Warrant.

Your Order for Recovery form was posted to you recently and enables you to make
the required Witness Statement. However, if the 21 day time limit has now elapsed,
you will need to contact the Traffic Enforcement Centre (TEC) on 0300 123 1059 and
request that you are allowed to make an Out of Time Witness Statement.

If this response has been sent via email please note this email address is from an
account that is not monitored.

Yours sincerely,

Miss K Randles
Parking Section


It seems BCC have not taken into account the notice from TEC that I had made a Statutory Declaration. On BCC website it still states there is an outstanding charge of £83

Any advice on how to proceed?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 10:47
Post #45


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



Email parking dept.
The ball is in their court.
Ref PCN???
Copy of TEC order plus reference to Ms Randles' email.
And correct address for correspondence.

Please note that a witness statement was submitted and approved by TEC.
Copy of their order attached.
Please note my new address for all correspondence and notices.
I await a new NTO from yourselves or notification of cancelation of this PCN
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Fri, 4 May 2018 - 11:18
Post #46


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Cheers DD, will do today.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 11:37
Post #47


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Received the NTO dated 16/05/18. I checked the BCC website and it is back to £50 outstanding. Representations must be made by 13/06/18 and I intend to do that online.

I'm assuming the Specific Grounds regarding the Representation is- There has been an impropriety by the enforcement authority. It seems that's the only relevant one.

Attached a photo of the Specific Grounds. Hope it can be read.


Can anyone help with the the relevant Statutory requirement(s), time limit or other procedural steps that the council has failed to comply with?

Any advice on drafting would also be gratefully received.

Cheers, guys






Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
 
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 13:11
Post #48


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



I would have thought that "the alleged contravention did not occur" would be relevant here. The tribunal will normally find that where it is impossible to pay for parking, parking without paying is not a contravention.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Mon, 21 May 2018 - 13:14
Post #49


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



I've done some research and started to draft my representation. Feedback and advice will be most welcome.


I refer you to the Traffic Management Act 2004

The Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions.

S. 8.15 on Page 23 of the guidelines.

Out of order parking devices


For the same reasons of fairness mentioned above, if an on-street parking meter or pay-and-display machine is out of order (and parking has not been suspended and clearly indicated as such to motorists), motorists should not be issued with a penalty charge notice unless alternative means of payment were available to the driver and clearly indicated. It is important that suspended and reserved parking bays are clearly signed, so that motorists can easily see whether and when they are permitted to park there.


As per the Statutory Guidance stated above, it is clear that in cases where a parking meter is not working, BCC have a legal duty to inform motorists what they should do in this event. If BCC fail to inform motorists of an alternative means of payment a PCN should not be issued. The last sentence of S 8.15 is not relevant as none of the parking bays in that zone were reserved or suspended.

At the parking zone in question, drivers are requested to ‘pay at machine and display ticket’ in the parking bays between the two signs with arrows pointing right and left.
I parked my car around 4pm the previous day. When I went to look for a meter for this zone the only meter, situated in the middle of the two signs, was totally destroyed. There were no instructions anywhere within the zone of what to do if the parking meter was not working or didn’t exist. Furthermore, there was no notification of any times/days that BCC parking restriction/rules apply on the remains of the ‘machine’ or anywhere else within the signs directing a motorist to the parking bays within that zone. .

The next morning, when I asked the CEO how I was supposed to pay he pointed to another street around the corner, Tenant Street. Even if this was relevant, which it is not, this makes little sense. If a motorist did decide to traipse the streets trying to find a working meter in another parking zone (eg: Tenant Street) how would that motorist know if the same parking fees/restrictions applied to the zone in Granville Street with the destroyed meter?

A CEO should be aware of these statuatory guidelines and as such a PCN should not have been issued.

I request that this PCN is cancelled forthwith.

This post has been edited by misteral: Mon, 21 May 2018 - 13:16
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Tue, 22 May 2018 - 20:32
Post #50


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 21 May 2018 - 14:11) *
I would have thought that "the alleged contravention did not occur" would be relevant here. The tribunal will normally find that where it is impossible to pay for parking, parking without paying is not a contravention.



Mmmmm......hadn't considered that.

Anyone?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Wed, 23 May 2018 - 20:39
Post #51


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



I would add a very clear opening paragraph.
The contravention did not occur
I parked in a parking bay and followed restriction sign arrows to a totally destroyed payment machine.
There were no alternative machines visible nor instructions to show alternative payment means or places.
With no method of making payment, enforcement of a PCN is untenable and it should be cancelled.

Then your bit but start with......
I refer you to the Traffic Management Act 2004

The Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions which enforcement authorities must have regard to.....


Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 10:50
Post #52


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Thanks, DD

Can i use two Specified Grounds of Appeal on the NTO or just the one?

A- The contravention did not occur (Please explain why you believe the contravention did not occur)

F- There has been a procedural impropriety by the enforcement authority (BCC has failed to comply with any requirement imposed by the TMA 2004)


I'm not sure that LA's are actually required to provide alternative means of payment under the ACT or just that if they don't the should not issue a PCN, as per the guidance.

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:46
Post #53


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



If you are to cite a PI (you can cite any grounds that apply, all if they do) the issue is that they have failed to have regard to the statutory guidance.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
cp8759
post Fri, 25 May 2018 - 00:14
Post #54


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 38,006
Joined: 3 Dec 2010
Member No.: 42,618



QUOTE (misteral @ Thu, 24 May 2018 - 11:50) *
I'm not sure that LA's are actually required to provide alternative means of payment under the ACT or just that if they don't the should not issue a PCN, as per the guidance.

It's much simpler than that. As I have explained, if payment is impossible, the adjudicator will find that the alleged contravention did not occur. If the alleged contravention did not occur, the PCN shouldn't have been issued, but now that it has been, the tribunal should uphold the appeal and order the council to cancel it. There's an old case exactly like this somewhere on the forum, don't have time to look for it right now but might do so later.


--------------------
If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Wed, 30 May 2018 - 18:30
Post #55


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Thanks cp8759

We're at the reps to NTO stage atm so I'll post my 'final' representation in a few days for feedback etc then we'll see what they say. I hope and expect a cancellation but will go to tribunal if forced to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 18:59
Post #56


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Going away at the end of the week so would like to get this in beforehand, although the deadline 16 June. Here's my reps to the NTO. Hope someone can give me some feedback on anything really. Have I covered to much? Anything missing I can add? Is the tone ok?


I received a Notice to Owner from you dated 16/05/18 in respect of PCN: BM1246xxxx

Formal Representations

This contravention did not occur. On a visit from Glasgow to Birmingham I parked in a parking bay in Granville Street within a specified parking zone and followed the restriction sign arrows only to find a completely destroyed payment machine. There were no alternative machines visible in this zone nor any instructions to inform motorists of alternative means of payment. With no means of payment available, enforcement of a PCN is untenable and I request that this PCN be cancelled.

I refer you to the Traffic Management Act 2004

The Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions, (which local authorities must have regard to)
S. 8.15 on Page 23 of the guidance.

Out of order parking devices

For the same reasons of fairness mentioned above, if an on-street parking meter or pay-and-display machine is out of order (and parking has not been suspended and clearly indicated as such to motorists), motorists should not be issued with a penalty charge notice unless alternative means of payment were available to the driver and clearly indicated. It is important that suspended and reserved parking bays are clearly signed, so that motorists can easily see whether and when they are permitted to park there.


As per the Statutory Guidance stated above, in cases where a payment machine is not working, BCC have an obligation to make available to motorists clear information in respect of alternative means of payment and that if BCC fail to inform motorists of an alternative means of payment a PCN should not be issued. I don’t believe the Secretary of State’s guidance could be any clearer and the circumstances regarding my PCN fall squarely within the guidance in S8.15.

My question for BCC is where was the clearly indicated information in respect of alternative means of payment? At the parking zone in question, drivers are requested to ‘pay at machine and display ticket’ in the parking bays between the two signs with arrows pointing right and left.

I parked my car around 4pm the previous day. When I went to look for a pay and display machine for this zone the only one, situated in the middle of the two signs, was totally destroyed. There were no other machines or instructions anywhere within the zone of what to do if the pay and display machine was not working. Furthermore, there was no notification of any times or days that BCC parking restrictions apply on the remains of the ‘machine’ or anywhere else within the zone.

Although not material to the grounds of this appeal, the next morning, when I asked the CEO how I was supposed to pay he pointed to another street around the corner, Tenant Street. This makes little sense. If a motorist did decide to traipse the streets trying to find a working machine in another parking zone (eg: Tenant Street) how would that motorist know if the same parking fees or restrictions applied to the zone in Granville Street with the destroyed pay and display machine? Furthermore, in your response to my original appeal you stated "The notices in the Pay and Display area state that statutory penalty charges apply for failure to display a valid ticket". Which notices does this refer to?

To conclude, with reference to the Traffic Management Act 2004: The Secretary of State's Statutory Guidance to Local Authorities on the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions S8.15, the alleged contravention did not occur. The facts are that Birmingham City Council did not provide any alternative means of payment nor provide any information in respect of alternative means of payment in any part of the parking zone in Granville Street with the destroyed pay and display machine and therefore a PCN should not have been issued in these circumstances. S8.15 is clear statutory guidance and in this instance BCC have failed in their statutory duty to have regard to it.

I request that this PCN is cancelled.

Please note that if this case goes to Adjudication I will apply for costs from Birmingham City Council.


Thanks in advance. Should I include my photos from my original appeal?

This post has been edited by misteral: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 20:55
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Tue, 5 Jun 2018 - 23:07
Post #57


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



QUOTE
Please note that if this case goes to Adjudication I will apply for costs from Birmingham City Council.

I would delete the line above, threats, even if justified, only stiffen their resolve

I would replace it with....
Even if the authority do not believe that the above merits cancellation, I would ask that they appreciate the very difficult situation a motorist is faced with when the payment machine is missing and exercise their discretion to cancel the PCN.

May seem a little like grovelling but adds another ground for appeal to adjudicators should they ignore.

Yes, include your photos.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 10:58
Post #58


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Thanks DD and everyone else who contributed.

I've sent my Representation in relation to the NTO and it's the same as post#56 except the threat to adjudication as suggested by DD.

Will keep you posted. TBH, I'll be surprised if it's rejected but you never know.

This post has been edited by misteral: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 - 11:17
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
misteral
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 07:43
Post #59


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 40
Joined: 7 Jun 2016
Member No.: 84,804



Success biggrin.gif

Received notice today that the PCN and NTO have been cancelled.

Thank you all for your great help.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
DancingDad
post Sun, 1 Jul 2018 - 08:29
Post #60


Member


Group: Members
Posts: 25,726
Joined: 28 Jun 2010
From: Area 51
Member No.: 38,559



That'll do nicely.
Well done for sticking with it.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  < 1 2 3
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Advertisement

Advertise here!

RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: Thursday, 28th March 2024 - 22:08
Pepipoo uses cookies. You can find details of the cookies we use here along with links to information on how to manage them.
Please click the button to accept our cookies and hide this message. We’ll also assume that you’re happy to accept them if you continue to use the site.
IPS Driver Error

IPS Driver Error

There appears to be an error with the database.
You can try to refresh the page by clicking here