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Premier Park PCN - overstaying maximum period, An interesting one - ambiguous / deceptive signage + right of access
K.I.T.T.
post Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 21:40
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Esteemed members, it's been a while since I've sought advice on challenging an unfair 'ticket'. Let time was against a council and with your help, I won. This time it's a private company

A local railway station has a pay and display car park, but it's accessed by another car park that belongs to a leisure venue. They have ANPR at the entrance to this. It is signposted 'railway parking this way' or similar, but, it appears that you have to actually drive right to the back of the car park, where there are some signs saying 'you are now leaving the leisure venue', or similar, where again, there are some ANPR cameras. I only found this out today when I went to investigate. The thing is, to leave, you'd have to come back the way you entered.

Entrance (to leisure venue) - ANPR ----> pay and display ticket machine for railway car park -----> ANPR (entrance to railway car park / 'exit' to leisure car park) ----> railway car park -----> dead end.

I used google maps and added some narative to better explain the layout:



You cannot exit the railway car park any other way than 'entering' and leaving the leisure car park again.

It would appear if the second ANPR camera clocks you, you're good. The driver paid for a ticket (for the station car park - which I have in my possession), parked up and displayed it.

This was last week. I, the RK got a PCN in the post today which I have posted below. Annoyingly, the driver did the same thing earlier this week getting the train, so perhaps I'll get another PCN soon?





I also include signage and how, in my opinion, it is unclear as where the threshold of the railway car park and leisure car park begins / ends. Annoyingly, the driver usually drives to a closer station and leave the car on a a residential road with no issue. The station parking signs on top of the T&Cs again make it unclear.

ANPR - entry

DSC_0611 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/12257823@N03/, on Flickr

Station car park 'entry' and ticket machine and ANPR camera. Also, more confusing signage.






Signs directing you to station parking:





Leisure car park signage (with confusing station parking sign)



Hopefully that makes sense?

Any words of wisdom? Both for this PCN as well as the one I will undoubtedly receive next week.

The pictures they have may identify the driver.

Many thanks in anticipation.

This post has been edited by K.I.T.T.: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 - 11:55
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post Thu, 19 Jul 2018 - 21:40
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K.I.T.T.
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 21:09
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Thanks SchoolRunMum.

QUOTE (SchoolRunMum @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 21:36) *
QUOTE
as the RK on behalf of the driver


You are NOT appealing 'on behalf of the driver'. Don't fill in the POPLA boxes saying that!



I definitely won't do that - SIC, however, I understand why you said that smile.gif

Whilst I was going to appeal along these lines all along, the previous two posts haven't done much for my confidence levels!

Should I perhaps compose a draft later this week and post it up? It may be tricky with the picture limit for a single post however. Then again if they are watching (hello!), it's going to be blatantly obvious which case this pertains to.
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 21:13
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QUOTE (K.I.T.T. @ Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 20:38) *
Thank you Redivi and Churchmouse.

Unfortunately I'm stuck with only a phone until Friday, which somewhat limits how much background reading I can do.

Is it worth contesting the PCN itself as potentially faulty? Again, I will do some more research later in the week, however, their wording re: payment due within did have my Spidey Senses twitching. Something seemed amiss.

Regarding the previous two responses, considering the 'interesting' layout of both car parks, and the presence of the ticket, it sounds like it may not be worth contesting on the grounds suggested earlier. However, if all they have is the ANPR imagery, is that alone, considering the circumstances, in conjunction with the ticket, enough for them to 'prove' the car was parked there for the entire duration? Again, please, refer to the sketch in my original post and description of the layout. You have to enter and leave the car park managed by PP to enter the station car park and then enter and leave again to get out. It just seems bizzare.

The courts do not seem to have an issue with ANPR, despite the fact that ANPR data alone do not prove that a given driver has actually parked anywhere--the driver could have been doing donuts in the car park for 20 minutes without ever stopping--so that is the base line: the proof only has to be more than 50% in favour of parking, and that doesn't seem to be a problem. This particular ANPR layout is unusual, but in theory it should allow the PPC to determine which vehicles stayed within the PPC's zone and which did not. Given the courts' general acceptance of ANPR, however, you would need to convince a judge that this ANPR layout was so different from normal that it was unlikely to have operated correctly in your case. The PPC will no doubt point out that your theory would have required their system to have malfunctioned twice in one day (missing both the first exit from, and the second entrance into, their zone) and that their records did not show any other similar malfunctions that day. I don't know what the "normal" failure rate is supposed to be on normal ANPR systems (which would logically be higher in a system like this one), but you might be able to raise sufficient doubt if you could get the right evidence before the court. Of course, if you win the DJ lottery, you'll win regardless. Do you feel lucky?

--Churchmouse
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K.I.T.T.
post Tue, 4 Sep 2018 - 21:35
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Thanks again, Churchmouse. At this stage, I'm aiming to convince POPLA to uphold my appeal. Which may prove tricky from what I've heard thus far about 'new' POPLA. If they don't uphold it, well, let's just say I'd rather not go to court.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26..._plate_problems

This may be interesting reading (no I haven't read it, yet)...
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K.I.T.T.
post Sun, 9 Sep 2018 - 22:10
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First draft of POPLA appeal. Have just under three weeks to get it in.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1L1I0Arg...dit?usp=sharing
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