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TFL Request for Info, re rental agreement, Section 66 RTOA 1988
Phil_Barker
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:37
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Got a bit of weird one here.
One of our drivers recieved a PCN from TFL, and we did what we normally do. Eitehr appeal on his behalf supplying job details and licence info if the driver was doing a job, or supply a copy of the renatl agreement and his details if he wasn't doing a job and the PCN has to be paid or appleaed by them in their own words re mitigating circumstances they may have.

This time however, TFL have come back and said that the Rental Agreement is 'Invalid'.

Attached is a copy of what they sent, and our rental agreement. personal details removed.


Any ideas if valid, or way to appeal.

Cheers Peeps









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A little bit strange:
Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé
I have 2! Both a little special and rare.
And 2 other Rover 800's!!!
Phil B :)
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post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:37
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cp8759
post Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:44
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If you look at schedule 2 of The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000 they do have a point:

Time and date of commencement of original hiring period.
Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period.
Time and date of commencement of authorised extension of hiring period.
Expected time and date of expiry of authorised extension of hiring period.


I don't see how an "ongoing" agreement could comply.


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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 08:36
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I take it that you were trying to transfer liability from yourselves (as registered keeper) to the hirer at the time?
Unless someone else can see some other way of doing so, it looks to me like you're going to have to appeal this yourselves or pay the penalty charge.
A review of your paperwork might be in order too
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:00
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It is the owner that is liable not the RK. If a hire period is longer than 6 months then the hirer could be construed as the owner with all the responsibilities and privileges pertaining.

A statement from the hirer accepting this is so should be sufficient for TFL but most likely would need to go to tribunal


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hcandersen
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:06
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OP, no matter how many times you insert 'hire agreement' into this doc, it isn't. In fact it's nothing like a hiring agreement, to use the correct term. And this is not what a 'vehicle-hire firm' would issue, its terms purport to go well beyond the scope of anything that an arm's-length VHC's hiring agreement would ever contain.

IMO, this is part of the employee's contract of employment, even if on the so-called gig economy.

And as for insurance! And what happens if payment of the correct amount is not made by the specified time?

Have you had this looked at by a legally qualified person? If you have, then their English grammar leaves something to be desired:

I accept, not I except
One week's rental, not one weeks'
The same week's notice, not weeks' notice.

And so on.

But you say that this is what you've used previously.

Have you used with TfL?


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DastardlyDick
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:58
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QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:00) *
It is the owner that is liable not the RK.


Surely the RK is held to be the owner in most civil enforcement up until the likes of Bailiffs get involved?


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:06) *
OP, no matter how many times you insert 'hire agreement' into this doc, it isn't. In fact it's nothing like a hiring agreement, to use the correct term. And this is not what a 'vehicle-hire firm' would issue, its terms purport to go well beyond the scope of anything that an arm's-length VHC's hiring agreement would ever contain.

IMO, this is part of the employee's contract of employment, even if on the so-called gig economy.

And as for insurance! And what happens if payment of the correct amount is not made by the specified time?

Have you had this looked at by a legally qualified person? If you have, then their English grammar leaves something to be desired:

I accept, not I except
One week's rental, not one weeks'
The same week's notice, not weeks' notice.

And so on.

But you say that this is what you've used previously.

Have you used with TfL?

Looking at that document, it looks like the vehicle "hired" is a cab or minicab. If it is legally valid the OP can simply pay the PCN and recover the cost from the hirer.
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PASTMYBEST
post Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:04
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QUOTE (DastardlyDick @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:58) *
QUOTE (PASTMYBEST @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:00) *
It is the owner that is liable not the RK.


Surely the RK is held to be the owner in most civil enforcement up until the likes of Bailiffs get involved?


QUOTE (hcandersen @ Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:06) *
OP, no matter how many times you insert 'hire agreement' into this doc, it isn't. In fact it's nothing like a hiring agreement, to use the correct term. And this is not what a 'vehicle-hire firm' would issue, its terms purport to go well beyond the scope of anything that an arm's-length VHC's hiring agreement would ever contain.

IMO, this is part of the employee's contract of employment, even if on the so-called gig economy.

And as for insurance! And what happens if payment of the correct amount is not made by the specified time?

Have you had this looked at by a legally qualified person? If you have, then their English grammar leaves something to be desired:

I accept, not I except
One week's rental, not one weeks'
The same week's notice, not weeks' notice.

And so on.

But you say that this is what you've used previously.

Have you used with TfL?

Looking at that document, it looks like the vehicle "hired" is a cab or minicab. If it is legally valid the OP can simply pay the PCN and recover the cost from the hirer.


The RK is presumed to be the owner. That presumption can bw rebutted with evidence strong enough to swing the balance of probability that way. The same applies with finance companies who cannot use the hire agreement regs


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Phil_Barker
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 13:14
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Thankyou all for your feedback.
The copy of the rental contract is an old copy that was used. Spelling and gramatical errors have since been changed. (i didnt write the original, it was obtained from another partner firm and used by us)

Re the continuation of the contract, I have drafted this:

This hire agreement is an annual ongoing Contract with one week’s notice of termination; full charges will be implemented if termination notice is breached. Renewal of contract will be 1 year from date of signing if applicable.


--------------------
-----------------------------------
A little bit strange:
Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé
I have 2! Both a little special and rare.
And 2 other Rover 800's!!!
Phil B :)
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cp8759
post Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 18:32
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QUOTE (Phil_Barker @ Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 14:14) *
Thankyou all for your feedback.
The copy of the rental contract is an old copy that was used. Spelling and gramatical errors have since been changed. (i didnt write the original, it was obtained from another partner firm and used by us)

Re the continuation of the contract, I have drafted this:

This hire agreement is an annual ongoing Contract with one week’s notice of termination; full charges will be implemented if termination notice is breached. Renewal of contract will be 1 year from date of signing if applicable.

To be honest to satisfy the regulations you need a defined start and end date, I don't think your proposed template will work.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 07:30
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..and even if it was, you have another hurdle to negotiate: are you a 'vehicle-hire firm'?

If Avis delivered pizzas, would that mean they were or weren't a VHF?

Is Uber?

This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 07:36
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Phil_Barker
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 14:10
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@ HCAnderson

We are a Private Hire firm, based in South London/Surrey with just over 300 drivers, 95% of which either own their own car, or rent privately.
We have 8 of our own vehicles, and most of those have been with the same drivers for a number of years, or the drivers have received replacement vehicles when their existing vehicle has been retired.

Uber.... shudders and cringes!!!!


--------------------
-----------------------------------
A little bit strange:
Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé
I have 2! Both a little special and rare.
And 2 other Rover 800's!!!
Phil B :)
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cp8759
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 18:09
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QUOTE (Phil_Barker @ Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 15:10) *
@ HCAnderson

We are a Private Hire firm, based in South London/Surrey with just over 300 drivers, 95% of which either own their own car, or rent privately.
We have 8 of our own vehicles, and most of those have been with the same drivers for a number of years, or the drivers have received replacement vehicles when their existing vehicle has been retired.

Uber.... shudders and cringes!!!!

I think a vehicle hire firm a a vehicle that hires cars to members of the public who wish to hire a car, i.e. Avis or Europcar. You sound more like a minicab firm.


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hcandersen
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:23
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+1.

'Your drivers' says it all IMO. You are not a VHF, you are either an employer with direct employees or a company using contract labour. As employment law unfolds in the courts - and more cases will follow Uber and Deliveroo, bank on it - then you might have to change tack.

But you are what you are and are not going to change because of a few PCNs. Why not just suck this one up and move on. You say your docs have been accepted previously, maybe this is an aberration and not a change of direction by authorities.

One PCN does not a crisis make, but if you take to adjudication then IMO you have far more to lose than gain.
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PASTMYBEST
post Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:34
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What grounds would the driver use to appeal?

your agreement makes the driver/hirer liable for PCN's so if you cannot use the hiring agreement regs You must go before an adjudicator and ask them to find that the driver is de facto owner. Make an appeal on the drivers behalf in the terms they would make or pay and pass on the cost as per your agreement

The tests the use for this are in the main

has sole use and keeps the vehicle in their possession

is responsible for insurance it being included in the rental IMO will not do


is responsible for servicing and maintenance again this would be payment for these not just carrying out checks and putting oil in


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