TFL Request for Info, re rental agreement, Section 66 RTOA 1988 |
TFL Request for Info, re rental agreement, Section 66 RTOA 1988 |
Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:37
Post
#1
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 272 Joined: 13 Sep 2011 From: Croydon, Surrey Member No.: 49,608 |
Got a bit of weird one here.
One of our drivers recieved a PCN from TFL, and we did what we normally do. Eitehr appeal on his behalf supplying job details and licence info if the driver was doing a job, or supply a copy of the renatl agreement and his details if he wasn't doing a job and the PCN has to be paid or appleaed by them in their own words re mitigating circumstances they may have. This time however, TFL have come back and said that the Rental Agreement is 'Invalid'. Attached is a copy of what they sent, and our rental agreement. personal details removed. Any ideas if valid, or way to appeal. Cheers Peeps -------------------- -----------------------------------
A little bit strange: Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé I have 2! Both a little special and rare. And 2 other Rover 800's!!! Phil B :) |
|
|
Advertisement |
Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 14:37
Post
#
|
Advertise here! |
|
|
|
Fri, 12 Oct 2018 - 23:44
Post
#2
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
If you look at schedule 2 of The Road Traffic (Owner Liability) Regulations 2000 they do have a point:
Time and date of commencement of original hiring period. Expected time and date of expiry of original hiring period. Time and date of commencement of authorised extension of hiring period. Expected time and date of expiry of authorised extension of hiring period. I don't see how an "ongoing" agreement could comply. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 08:36
Post
#3
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
I take it that you were trying to transfer liability from yourselves (as registered keeper) to the hirer at the time?
Unless someone else can see some other way of doing so, it looks to me like you're going to have to appeal this yourselves or pay the penalty charge. A review of your paperwork might be in order too |
|
|
Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:00
Post
#4
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
It is the owner that is liable not the RK. If a hire period is longer than 6 months then the hirer could be construed as the owner with all the responsibilities and privileges pertaining.
A statement from the hirer accepting this is so should be sufficient for TFL but most likely would need to go to tribunal -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:06
Post
#5
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
OP, no matter how many times you insert 'hire agreement' into this doc, it isn't. In fact it's nothing like a hiring agreement, to use the correct term. And this is not what a 'vehicle-hire firm' would issue, its terms purport to go well beyond the scope of anything that an arm's-length VHC's hiring agreement would ever contain.
IMO, this is part of the employee's contract of employment, even if on the so-called gig economy. And as for insurance! And what happens if payment of the correct amount is not made by the specified time? Have you had this looked at by a legally qualified person? If you have, then their English grammar leaves something to be desired: I accept, not I except One week's rental, not one weeks' The same week's notice, not weeks' notice. And so on. But you say that this is what you've used previously. Have you used with TfL? |
|
|
Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 10:58
Post
#6
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 1,860 Joined: 12 May 2012 Member No.: 54,871 |
It is the owner that is liable not the RK. Surely the RK is held to be the owner in most civil enforcement up until the likes of Bailiffs get involved? OP, no matter how many times you insert 'hire agreement' into this doc, it isn't. In fact it's nothing like a hiring agreement, to use the correct term. And this is not what a 'vehicle-hire firm' would issue, its terms purport to go well beyond the scope of anything that an arm's-length VHC's hiring agreement would ever contain. IMO, this is part of the employee's contract of employment, even if on the so-called gig economy. And as for insurance! And what happens if payment of the correct amount is not made by the specified time? Have you had this looked at by a legally qualified person? If you have, then their English grammar leaves something to be desired: I accept, not I except One week's rental, not one weeks' The same week's notice, not weeks' notice. And so on. But you say that this is what you've used previously. Have you used with TfL? Looking at that document, it looks like the vehicle "hired" is a cab or minicab. If it is legally valid the OP can simply pay the PCN and recover the cost from the hirer. |
|
|
Sun, 14 Oct 2018 - 11:04
Post
#7
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
It is the owner that is liable not the RK. Surely the RK is held to be the owner in most civil enforcement up until the likes of Bailiffs get involved? OP, no matter how many times you insert 'hire agreement' into this doc, it isn't. In fact it's nothing like a hiring agreement, to use the correct term. And this is not what a 'vehicle-hire firm' would issue, its terms purport to go well beyond the scope of anything that an arm's-length VHC's hiring agreement would ever contain. IMO, this is part of the employee's contract of employment, even if on the so-called gig economy. And as for insurance! And what happens if payment of the correct amount is not made by the specified time? Have you had this looked at by a legally qualified person? If you have, then their English grammar leaves something to be desired: I accept, not I except One week's rental, not one weeks' The same week's notice, not weeks' notice. And so on. But you say that this is what you've used previously. Have you used with TfL? Looking at that document, it looks like the vehicle "hired" is a cab or minicab. If it is legally valid the OP can simply pay the PCN and recover the cost from the hirer. The RK is presumed to be the owner. That presumption can bw rebutted with evidence strong enough to swing the balance of probability that way. The same applies with finance companies who cannot use the hire agreement regs -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 13:14
Post
#8
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 272 Joined: 13 Sep 2011 From: Croydon, Surrey Member No.: 49,608 |
Thankyou all for your feedback.
The copy of the rental contract is an old copy that was used. Spelling and gramatical errors have since been changed. (i didnt write the original, it was obtained from another partner firm and used by us) Re the continuation of the contract, I have drafted this: This hire agreement is an annual ongoing Contract with one week’s notice of termination; full charges will be implemented if termination notice is breached. Renewal of contract will be 1 year from date of signing if applicable. -------------------- -----------------------------------
A little bit strange: Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé I have 2! Both a little special and rare. And 2 other Rover 800's!!! Phil B :) |
|
|
Mon, 15 Oct 2018 - 18:32
Post
#9
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
Thankyou all for your feedback. The copy of the rental contract is an old copy that was used. Spelling and gramatical errors have since been changed. (i didnt write the original, it was obtained from another partner firm and used by us) Re the continuation of the contract, I have drafted this: This hire agreement is an annual ongoing Contract with one week’s notice of termination; full charges will be implemented if termination notice is breached. Renewal of contract will be 1 year from date of signing if applicable. To be honest to satisfy the regulations you need a defined start and end date, I don't think your proposed template will work. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 07:30
Post
#10
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
..and even if it was, you have another hurdle to negotiate: are you a 'vehicle-hire firm'?
If Avis delivered pizzas, would that mean they were or weren't a VHF? Is Uber? This post has been edited by hcandersen: Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 07:36 |
|
|
Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 14:10
Post
#11
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 272 Joined: 13 Sep 2011 From: Croydon, Surrey Member No.: 49,608 |
@ HCAnderson
We are a Private Hire firm, based in South London/Surrey with just over 300 drivers, 95% of which either own their own car, or rent privately. We have 8 of our own vehicles, and most of those have been with the same drivers for a number of years, or the drivers have received replacement vehicles when their existing vehicle has been retired. Uber.... shudders and cringes!!!! -------------------- -----------------------------------
A little bit strange: Has a love for the Rover 800 2 door Coupé I have 2! Both a little special and rare. And 2 other Rover 800's!!! Phil B :) |
|
|
Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 18:09
Post
#12
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 38,006 Joined: 3 Dec 2010 Member No.: 42,618 |
@ HCAnderson We are a Private Hire firm, based in South London/Surrey with just over 300 drivers, 95% of which either own their own car, or rent privately. We have 8 of our own vehicles, and most of those have been with the same drivers for a number of years, or the drivers have received replacement vehicles when their existing vehicle has been retired. Uber.... shudders and cringes!!!! I think a vehicle hire firm a a vehicle that hires cars to members of the public who wish to hire a car, i.e. Avis or Europcar. You sound more like a minicab firm. -------------------- If you would like assistance with a penalty charge notice, please post a thread on https://www.ftla.uk/index.php
|
|
|
Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:23
Post
#13
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 35,063 Joined: 2 Aug 2008 From: Woking Member No.: 21,551 |
+1.
'Your drivers' says it all IMO. You are not a VHF, you are either an employer with direct employees or a company using contract labour. As employment law unfolds in the courts - and more cases will follow Uber and Deliveroo, bank on it - then you might have to change tack. But you are what you are and are not going to change because of a few PCNs. Why not just suck this one up and move on. You say your docs have been accepted previously, maybe this is an aberration and not a change of direction by authorities. One PCN does not a crisis make, but if you take to adjudication then IMO you have far more to lose than gain. |
|
|
Tue, 16 Oct 2018 - 21:34
Post
#14
|
|
Member Group: Members Posts: 26,655 Joined: 6 Nov 2014 Member No.: 74,048 |
What grounds would the driver use to appeal?
your agreement makes the driver/hirer liable for PCN's so if you cannot use the hiring agreement regs You must go before an adjudicator and ask them to find that the driver is de facto owner. Make an appeal on the drivers behalf in the terms they would make or pay and pass on the cost as per your agreement The tests the use for this are in the main has sole use and keeps the vehicle in their possession is responsible for insurance it being included in the rental IMO will not do is responsible for servicing and maintenance again this would be payment for these not just carrying out checks and putting oil in -------------------- All advice is given freely. It is given without guarantee and responsibility for its use rests with the user
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: Friday, 29th March 2024 - 01:58 |