CCTV TICKET FOR TAKING A LEFT TURN Options

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Hi All,

I have received a ticket from Barnet council for taking a left turn when there were signs showing, no left turns.

However, i was new in the area and honestly did not see the signs for "no left turns" as i was lost and following my navigation. I was recorded and issued a CCTV PCN and the follow image was enclosed. I am not one to disregard signs, and it was a genuine mistake on my part but when i started to look into this, i realised that although the council have a CCTV camera in place, this is not visible to drivers and has a very small sign to show "CCTV".

I am not sure if this is legal, as when reading up on guidelines from transport of London it clearly states that signs signs should be visible to motorists.

Please can someone advise me if i have any grounds for appeal?

Any advice would be much appreciated

Thanks

Adam

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[stamfordman]

If you do a search for Tilling Road you'll find many cases here. I think the signage has been improved and I don't think an appeal is likely to have success on the contravention itself.

There may be technical fault with the PCN so post it.

Use a site such as Imgur for pics and post the BBcode links.

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Thanks stamfordman,

I was going to request for more information on the CCTV device before making my appeal, as from my understanding this must be an approved device and have correct signage in place so there will be paper trail from the DFT signing this off.

I am not convinced the one they currently have is correct.

Also i think it might even be worth taking my chances on technical grounds as you said.

[stamfordman]

No chance on the camera.

Your problem as you admit was following satnav.

[Guest_Adam83_*]

I haven't appealed yet.

I was hoping to collect the evidence before i make my representations.

[peterguk]

I was going to request for more information on the CCTV device before making my appeal, as from my understanding this must be an approved device and have correct signage in place so there will be paper trail from the DFT signing this off.

I am not convinced the one they currently have is correct.

This is a council PCN, not a criminal offence like speeding. Don't confuse regulations/legislation for speed measuring equipment with that used in council decrim. contraventions.

[PASTMYBEST]

So what are you complaining about?

Its Barnet so most likely the PCN is flawed . But lets se it

[ford poplar]

Pics show 2 No Left Turn traffic signs (pres standard dimensions,) 1 on each side of road, with road markings on approach saying 'Ahead Only'.
Each CCTV camera does not have to be ind signed, but Adj may question your ability to see/understand clear road signs.
Pay the discount if still available.

This post has been edited by ford poplar: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 00:41

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Thanks Ford poplar, i totally understand. Although coming off a dual carriage way its a genuine mistake that can happen.

By over loading signs it doesn't resolve the problem, as other people have had tickets in the same place. So it appears there maybe others that also have problems reading signs or maybe fell for the same trap, coming off a dual carriage way. It is a short stretch of road leading up to the prohibited turn (approx 20m). Vehicle travelling around 40mph will have around 1 second to view and interpret 13 signs before reaching the prohibited turn. There is also a possible turn immediately after the prohibited turn.

I note that Barnet has issued an astonishingly high 251 average notices per day for this particular turn.

Do you think its worth the effort in trying to request information on whether they are using an approved device?

Peterguk- im not complaining just wondering if this is worth challenging as i don't believe they are alerting motorists there is CCTV in place as well as

Signs
2.3.5 Relevant camera enforcement signs should be displayed in areas where the system operates. The signs will not define the field of view of the cameras but will advise that CCTV camera enforcement is taking place in the area.

[peterguk]

Do you think its worth the effort in trying to request information on whether they are using an approved device?

No.

You haven't posted up PCN as requested.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Tue, 28 Aug 2018 - 21:48

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Hey, please find attached.

thanks

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[cp8759]

The wrong period is given for service of the charge certificate, the council won't accept this but it should succeed at the tribunal.

[Guest_Adam83_*]

The wrong period is given for service of the charge certificate, the council won't accept this but it should succeed at the tribunal.

Hey, could you elaborate on this further?

[cp8759]

Read ground 2 of this, it's lengthy but worth getting your head round: http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showto...p;#entry1409111

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Hey thats great stuff, i had a good read and i am not sure if i quite understand.

From my understanding the service of the charge certificate seems to be ok.

Please let me know if I'm missing something?


This post has been edited by Adam83: Thu, 30 Aug 2018 - 23:04

[cp8759]

Hey thats great stuff, i had a good read and i am not sure if i quite understand.

From my understanding the service of the charge certificate seems to be ok.

Please let me know if I'm missing something?

I'm afraid you are missing something. The law says they can increase the charge after the ed of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN. The PCN says they can increase the charge after the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the PCN.

Your PCN is dated 23 August 2018, so the council have told you they can increase the charge by 50% on 20 September 2018. But under the legislation the PCN is deemed to have been served two working days after it was issued, the weekend doesn't count (neither does the bank holiday Monday) so the date of service is Tuesday 28 August. So the first day they can increase the charge is actually Tuesday 25 September 2018. The council are effectively cutting short by five days the period you have to pay or appeal before they increase the penalty.

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Hey thank you so much for that clarity. I now understand. I will appeal accordingly.

thanks again

[cp8759]

Post a draft here before submitting.

[Guest_Adam83_*]

ok will do. thanks

[Guest_Adam83_*]

Draft:

To whom it may concern,

I am contesting the above Penalty Charge Notice as it is not substantially compliant with the legislation. The enforcement authority served a Penalty Charge Notice under section 4(2) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. Section 4(8) provides that the PCN must state, amongst other things, "that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable".

The relevant 28 day period is found in paragraph 5 of schedule 1 to the Act, which specifies that:

"Where a penalty charge notice is served on any person and the penalty charge to which it relates is not paid before the end of the relevant period, the enforcing authority may serve on that person a statement (in this paragraph referred to as a “charge certificate”) to the effect that the penalty charge in question is increased by 50 per cent.
(2)The relevant period, in relation to a penalty charge notice is the period of 28 days beginning—
(a)where no representations are made under paragraph 1 above, with the date on which the penalty charge notice is served;"

Paragraph 5 therefore prescribes that the enforcement authority may only increase the penalty charge if it has not been paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of service of the PCN.

The PCN served by the enforcement authority however states that: "If the Penalty Charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, the charge may increase to £195.00 and we may serve a Charge Certificate seeking payment of the increased amount", the only period of 28 days mentioned on the Penalty Charge Notice is the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice.

Parliament has required that the penalty charge notice must specify, under section 4(8)(iii) of the Act, that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice, but also that the 28 day period for the purposes of the charge certificate only starts with the date of service of the notice (which is two working days later), ultimately the legislation is what it is and the enforcement authority is required to comply with it if it wishes to lawfully impose penalty charges.

In this instance the PCN is dated 23 August 2018, so the council are stating they can increase the charge by 50% on 20 September 2018. But under the legislation the PCN is deemed to have been served two working days after it was issued, the weekend doesn't count (neither does the bank holiday Monday) so the date of service is Tuesday 28 August. So the first day they can increase the charge is actually Tuesday 25 September 2018. The council are effectively cutting short five days the period in which I can pay or appeal before they increase the penalty. By purporting to empower itself to serve a charge certificate some five days earlier than is permitted, the enforcement authority is acting prejudicially and it is depriving the recipient of the PCN of five days during which the option of either making representations, or indeed payment of the £130 penalty charge should still be available.

While the decisions in previous cases are not binding they can be persuasive and I submit Robert Atlas v London Borough of Barnet (case reference 2170053479) as persuasive authority in this instance.

"Section 4(8)(a) of the London Local Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003 provides that A penalty charge notice under this section must [amongst other things] state … (iii) that the penalty charge must be paid before the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of the notice; … (v) that, if the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period, an increased charge may be payable; (vi) the amount of the increased charge; … and (viii) that the person on whom the notice is served may be entitled to make representations under paragraph 1 of Schedule 1 to the Act; and (8)(b) requires that they specify the form in which any such representations are to be made.

Paragraph 1(3) of the Schedule provides that the enforcing authority may disregard any such representations which are received by them after the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the date on which the penalty charge notice in question was served.

Mr Atlas correctly points out that in this case the Penalty Charge Notice states: ‘The penalty charge of £130 must be paid not later than the last day of the period of 28 days beginning with the date of this notice. If the penalty charge is not paid before the end of the 28 day period and no representations have been made, an increased charge of 50% to £195 may be payable and a charge certificate may be issued.’

Mr Atlas submits that this wording is not compliant with the requirements of the 2003 Act and, further, effectively limits the time he has to make representations.

I submit that the same principle applies in the present case, the Penalty Charge Notice does not show substantial compliance with the 2003 Act and it follows that the only penalty that may be demanded is nil.

Therefore i request this PCN be cancelled immediately.

Yours sincerely,

This post has been edited by Adam83: Sat, 1 Sep 2018 - 23:29