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[NIP Wizard] Foreign Driver
alexsmith47001
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:24
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2017
Date of the NIP: - 2 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 7 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - m25 (Junction 12-13)
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - First
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? -
How many current points do you have? - 0
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - A potential buyer was test driving my car on the date of offence, I am unsure at the time of offence who was driving the car.(Either me or her) Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car. On day of test drive/Offence they were UK residents but subsequently moved back to Spain. Couple of questions:
1) I have seen the pictures available online I can not figure out who was driving the car, it was late at night. Who should I confirm as the driver?
2) If I should name her as the driver, should I provide the UK address( she does not live there anymore) or the Spanish address?
3) I would not be able to furnish any information on how and when she left the country as I can not get hold of them now
4) If I name myself the driver how many points should I expect, it was doing 67 on 50 variable speed limit on M25.

All feedback would be much appreciated.


NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - Yes
Did the first NIP arrive within 14 days? - Yes
Although you are the Registered Keeper, were you also the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - Yes
Were you driving? - Unsure
Do you know who was driving? - Unsure who was driving

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 20:24:53 +0000
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post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:24
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Jlc
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:34
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QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:24) *
1) I have seen the pictures available online I can not figure out who was driving the car, it was late at night. Who should I confirm as the driver?

Upon receiving the request to name the driver you must use reasonable diligence to identify them. We can't tell you who to name.

You have to retrace the events - many think you have to be 100% certain but naming the most likely driver can be a pragmatic approach, but you have the direction of travel and time of day and it wasn't that long ago... The photo's are to identify the offence and the vehicle - not the driver.

If after using reasonable diligence you cannot identify the driver then you will be summonsed to court. If you can convince the court that you could not identify the driver then you'll be acquitted - otherwise it's 6 points and a large fine.

QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:24) *
2) If I should name her as the driver, should I provide the UK address( she does not live there anymore) or the Spanish address?

You need to provide as much information as possible - so if you know her Spanish address is the last known address then that. Note that naming any foreign driver will instantly raise their suspicions as this has been used as a ruse to escape punishment. They may well require proof of insurance - but you appear to have covered this eventuality.

QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:24) *
3) I would not be able to furnish any information on how and when she left the country as I can not get hold of them now

See 2.

QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:24) *
4) If I name myself the driver how many points should I expect, it was doing 67 on 50 variable speed limit on M25.

That excess is a fixed penalty offer of 3 points £100.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:35


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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alexsmith47001
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:47
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Thanks a lot for your extremely informative reply.

[/quote] If I name myself the driver how many points should I expect, it was doing 67 on 50 variable speed limit on M25.[/quote]
That excess is a fixed penalty offer of 3 points £100.
[/quote]


Would it be not 6-8 points as the "calculator" indicates?
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Jlc
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:54
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Nope. Only if it went to court would it exceed the fixed penalty. There's no reason for this to go to court. (Caveat above about naming the driver)

You can't get more than 6 points for speeding.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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alexsmith47001
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:04
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I am tempted to name myself as driver if it is 3 points and £100 fine (read a lot of scary stories on the forum about naming foreign driver), is there a certain way to know if it would be 3 or 6 points? It was 67 on 50 on M25, variable limit was enforced.
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southpaw82
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:19
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QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 20:47) *
Would it be not 6-8 points as the "calculator" indicates?


It's never going to be more than six points for speeding.

QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:04) *
is there a certain way to know if it would be 3 or 6 points? It was 67 on 50 on M25, variable limit was enforced.

You can either take our word for it or not. Either way you have to name the driver.


--------------------


Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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Logician
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:25
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QUOTE
Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car


Well done for that, I trust you still have those copies. Does the insurance certificate state that she is covered for driving other vehicles?


--------------------



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alexsmith47001
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:27
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[/quote]
is there a certain way to know if it would be 3 or 6 points? It was 67 on 50 on M25, variable limit was enforced.[/quote]
You can either take our word for it or not. Either way you have to name the driver.
[/quote]

I am tempted to name myself as driver if it is 3 points and £100 fine (read a lot of scary stories on the forum about naming foreign driver)
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Churchmouse
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:34
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QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:04) *
I am tempted to name myself as driver if it is 3 points and £100 fine (read a lot of scary stories on the forum about naming foreign driver), is there a certain way to know if it would be 3 or 6 points? It was 67 on 50 on M25, variable limit was enforced.

Unfortunately, it's not your choice to make. You are required to name the driver, and use reasonable diligence to work out who that person was at the time of the alleged offense. Your curiosity about the potential penalty is premature; it is only relevant if you were the driver and have identified yourself as the driver. Frankly, your hesitation is a good sign. Late night M25 test drives by female foreign right-hooker aficionados are rather unusual.

--Churchmouse
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666
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 23:21
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QUOTE (Churchmouse @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:34) *
QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 21:04) *
I am tempted to name myself as driver if it is 3 points and £100 fine (read a lot of scary stories on the forum about naming foreign driver), is there a certain way to know if it would be 3 or 6 points? It was 67 on 50 on M25, variable limit was enforced.

Unfortunately, it's not your choice to make. You are required to name the driver, and use reasonable diligence to work out who that person was at the time of the alleged offense. Your curiosity about the potential penalty is premature; it is only relevant if you were the driver and have identified yourself as the driver. Frankly, your hesitation is a good sign. Late night M25 test drives by female foreign right-hooker aficionados are rather unusual.

--Churchmouse

Especially by those who expect to leave the country within a few days.
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cp8759
post Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:17
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QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:25) *
QUOTE
Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car


Well done for that, I trust you still have those copies. Does the insurance certificate state that she is covered for driving other vehicles?

OP, Logician has asked a very important question. Comprehensive insurance is not the same as driving other cars insurance, if the certificate didn't cover her you could be looking at a charge of allowing her to drive your car without insurance.
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Jlc
post Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:30
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Yes, many policies do include DOV (with conditions sometimes, e.g. over 25's) but it's not automatic and would need to be checked and any cover would only be 3rd party.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:31


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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alexsmith47001
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:21
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:25) *
QUOTE
Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car


Well done for that, I trust you still have those copies. Does the insurance certificate state that she is covered for driving other vehicles?

OP, Logician has asked a very important question. Comprehensive insurance is not the same as driving other cars insurance, if the certificate didn't cover her you could be looking at a charge of allowing her to drive your car without insurance.



Yes it did cover her to drive other vehicles with the permission of the owner which she did have.
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peterguk
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:23
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QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:25) *
QUOTE
Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car


Well done for that, I trust you still have those copies. Does the insurance certificate state that she is covered for driving other vehicles?

OP, Logician has asked a very important question. Comprehensive insurance is not the same as driving other cars insurance, if the certificate didn't cover her you could be looking at a charge of allowing her to drive your car without insurance.



Yes it did cover her to drive other vehicles with the permission of the owner which she did have.


Well that's great. You obviously kept the copy safe?


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alexsmith47001
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:21
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:23) *
QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:25) *
QUOTE
Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car


Well done for that, I trust you still have those copies. Does the insurance certificate state that she is covered for driving other vehicles?

OP, Logician has asked a very important question. Comprehensive insurance is not the same as driving other cars insurance, if the certificate didn't cover her you could be looking at a charge of allowing her to drive your car without insurance.



Yes it did cover her to drive other vehicles with the permission of the owner which she did have.


Well that's great. You obviously kept the copy safe?


Yes I do have the copy of it, the issue is we drove the car 3-4 times on the same route at the that sort of time and I was driving on one of the occasion, I am in catch 22 situation if she was driving and I name myself and if I was driving and name her as the driver ?
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peterguk
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:36
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QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:21) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:23) *
QUOTE (alexsmith47001 @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 14:21) *
QUOTE (cp8759 @ Wed, 29 Nov 2017 - 09:17) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:25) *
QUOTE
Before letting them drive my car I did take the copy of their license(Spanish) and copy of Insurance( British, Comprehensive) before they drove the car


Well done for that, I trust you still have those copies. Does the insurance certificate state that she is covered for driving other vehicles?

OP, Logician has asked a very important question. Comprehensive insurance is not the same as driving other cars insurance, if the certificate didn't cover her you could be looking at a charge of allowing her to drive your car without insurance.



Yes it did cover her to drive other vehicles with the permission of the owner which she did have.


Well that's great. You obviously kept the copy safe?


Yes I do have the copy of it, the issue is we drove the car 3-4 times on the same route at the that sort of time and I was driving on one of the occasion, I am in catch 22 situation if she was driving and I name myself and if I was driving and name her as the driver ?


There is nothing wrong in naming the person that was most likely the driver.


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andy_foster
post Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 21:08
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:36) *
There is nothing wrong in naming the person that was most likely the driver.


Wrong. The requirement is to name the actual driver, or if you are unable to do so with reasonable diligence, to provide any information that is in your power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver.

Naming the most likely driver is often touted as a pragmatic option - which is only pragmatic if that driver accepts that they were driving.


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Andy

Millenial (noun): a person who is offended at being told "Suck it up, buttercup"
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alexsmith47001
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 14:41
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 21:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:36) *
There is nothing wrong in naming the person that was most likely the driver.


Wrong. The requirement is to name the actual driver, or if you are unable to do so with reasonable diligence, to provide any information that is in your power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver.

Naming the most likely driver is often touted as a pragmatic option - which is only pragmatic if that driver accepts that they were driving.



Actually I have spoken to the foreign driver she is happy to accept that she was the driver as she lives in Spain now and is not coming back to the UK to live.

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Mr Rusty
post Thu, 7 Dec 2017 - 17:15
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please keep the thread updated as it will be interesting to see how the BiB pursue the insurance angle once you provide a copy of the certificate! - or if they just roll over. It's fairly unusual for peeps to have this! I expect they will certainly ask for it when you name a spanish driver smile.gif
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The Rookie
post Fri, 8 Dec 2017 - 04:01
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QUOTE (andy_foster @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 22:08) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 4 Dec 2017 - 15:36) *
There is nothing wrong in naming the person that was most likely the driver.


Wrong. The requirement is to name the actual driver, or if you are unable to do so with reasonable diligence, to provide any information that is in your power to give and that might lead to the identification of the driver.

Naming the most likely driver is often touted as a pragmatic option - which is only pragmatic if that driver accepts that they were driving.

While I agree that's not what is required, I'm not sure I wholly agree, naming the most likely driver if you are right is wholly correct, as that IS naming the actual driver.

Naming the most likely driver and being wrong would leave you open to a perverting charge though if it was genuinely 'the most likely driver' that offence wouldn't have been committed, but it would be an S172 offence.

Of course if the person who is the keeper doesn't know who was driving and any photo's don't show that person it would be next to impossible for the Police to be able to prove the nomination was incorrect anyway.


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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