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[NIP Wizard] Speeding fine in a variable speed limit zone
Dave3716
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:19
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NIP Details and Circumstances
What is the name of the Constabulary? -
Date of the offence: - November 2017
Date of the NIP: - 14 days after the offence
Date you received the NIP: - 16 days after the offence
Location of offence (exact location as it appears on the NIP: important): - M1 Northbound, Tibshelf
Was the NIP addressed to you? - Yes
Was the NIP sent by first class post, second class or recorded delivery? - Not known
If your are not the Registered Keeper, what is your relationship to the vehicle? - Delivery Driver for the company
How many current points do you have? -
Provide a description of events (if you know what happened) telling us as much about the incident as possible - some things that may seem trivial to you may be important, so don't leave anything out. Please do not post personal details for obvious reasons - I can't remember the speed being 40, I strongly remember it being 60mph and was clocked at 63

NIP Wizard Responses
These were the responses used by the Wizard to arrive at its recommendation:
Have you received a NIP? - Yes
Are you the Registered Keeper of the vehicle concerned (is your name and address on the V5/V5C)? - No
Is the NIP addressed to you personally? - Yes
Although you are not the Registered Keeper, were you the keeper of the vehicle concerned (the person normally responsible for it) at the time of the alleged offence? - No
As you were not responsible for the vehicle, somebody else has named you as the driver. Were you driving? - Yes
Which country did the alleged offence take place in? - England

NIP Wizard Recommendation
Based on these responses the Wizard suggested that this course of action should be considered:
  • The law requires you to provide the information requested in the Section 172 notice within the 28 day period, naming yourself as the driver. If you are considering obtaining formal legal advice, do so before returning the notice.

    You should note that there is nothing to be gained by responding any earlier than you have to at any stage of the process. You are likely to receive a Conditional Offer of a Fixed Penalty (COFP) and further reminder(s). If you want to continue the fight, you should ignore all correspondence from the police until you receive a summons. You need to understand from the outset that while you will receive much help and support from members on the forums, you will need to put time and effort into fighting your case and ultimately be prepared to stand up in court to defend yourself.

Generated by the PePiPoo NIP Wizard v3.3.2: Sun, 26 Nov 2017 22:17:28 +0000

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post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 22:19
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Logician
post Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 23:12
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You could try asking the police for "any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver", they usually oblige. If this variable speed section has been fitted with the latest Hadecs3 cameras, they show the sign displayed as well as the speed of the car.


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Dave3716
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 00:28
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QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 23:12) *
You could try asking the police for "any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver", they usually oblige. If this variable speed section has been fitted with the latest Hadecs3 cameras, they show the sign displayed as well as the speed of the car.



Thank you for your reply, I think it is just the standard digital red ring white numbers, do they have to provide any photographical evidence of the speed limit sign/duration after speed reduction etc? I cant remember it being 40 at all, it was defo 60 hence my speed being 63
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 02:17
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QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 01:28) *
QUOTE (Logician @ Sun, 26 Nov 2017 - 23:12) *
You could try asking the police for "any available photographs to assist in identifying the driver", they usually oblige. If this variable speed section has been fitted with the latest Hadecs3 cameras, they show the sign displayed as well as the speed of the car.



Thank you for your reply, I think it is just the standard digital red ring white numbers, do they have to provide any photographical evidence of the speed limit sign/duration after speed reduction etc? I cant remember it being 40 at all, it was defo 60 hence my speed being 63

They don't have to provide anything, but as Logician has said they usually do. If they have a shot showing the car and the speed limit sign above it, they will probably disclose it now as they have no reason not to.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Jlc
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 08:46
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I believe it's HADECS3 so the limit will be snapped too.

That speed is just eligible for a fixed penalty (3 points £100) - a few more mph would be a court visit. As you were speeding either way then the fixed penalty may be the best move.

This post has been edited by Jlc: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 08:48


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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Dave3716
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:31
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So, do they not need to provide proof that it was a signed 40 mph zone? and the duration if it changed from say 60 to 40? (how long they 'gave me' from 60>40>camera

and as for the £100 fine/3 points, even at 23 mph over the limit?
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Jlc
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:35
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QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:31) *
So, do they not need to provide proof that it was a signed 40 mph zone? and the duration if it changed from say 60 to 40? (how long they 'gave me' from 60>40>camera

Nope they don't have to provide 'proof' prior to court. (Note the comments above about requesting photo)

For a reducing changing limit then there's a minimum period before enforcing the limit. It appears to be 10 seconds here.

QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:31) *
and as for the £100 fine/3 points, even at 23 mph over the limit?

Yup. Court visit from 66mph.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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cp8759
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:37
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QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 23:31) *
So, do they not need to provide proof that it was a signed 40 mph zone? and the duration if it changed from say 60 to 40? (how long they 'gave me' from 60>40>camera

and as for the £100 fine/3 points, even at 23 mph over the limit?

At this stage they don't *have to* provide anything, if they do they are doing you a favour.

A fixed penalty notice can be offered up to 66mph in a 40, it can only be £100 / 3 points because it's a *fixed* penalty notice. The only alternative if they wanted to impose a higher penalty would be to go to court and let the magistrates decide, but that would only happen if there were aggravating factors.


--------------------
I am not on the "motorists's side", nor am I on the "police/CPS/council's" side, I am simply in favour of the rule of law.
No, I am not a lawyer.
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Dave3716
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43
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QUOTE (cp8759 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:37) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 23:31) *
So, do they not need to provide proof that it was a signed 40 mph zone? and the duration if it changed from say 60 to 40? (how long they 'gave me' from 60>40>camera

and as for the £100 fine/3 points, even at 23 mph over the limit?

At this stage they don't *have to* provide anything, if they do they are doing you a favour.

A fixed penalty notice can be offered up to 66mph in a 40, it can only be £100 / 3 points because it's a *fixed* penalty notice. The only alternative if they wanted to impose a higher penalty would be to go to court and let the magistrates decide, but that would only happen if there were aggravating factors.


So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?
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peterguk
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:47
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QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43) *
So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?


See post no. 2. Or don't bother asking for photos and just name yourself as the driver. Either way you are obliged to name yourself with 28 days.


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Dave3716
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:53
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43) *
So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?


See post no. 2. Or don't bother asking for photos and just name yourself as the driver. Either way you are obliged to name yourself with 28 days.


Thank you smile.gif

Just playing devils advocate, lets say the vehicle in question potentially had 2-3 different drivers that day, would they then have to provide a clear pic of the driver?
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peterguk
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:58
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QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43) *
So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?


See post no. 2. Or don't bother asking for photos and just name yourself as the driver. Either way you are obliged to name yourself with 28 days.


Thank you smile.gif

Just playing devils advocate, lets say the vehicle in question potentially had 2-3 different drivers that day, would they then have to provide a clear pic of the driver?



No. The photos are to identify the vehicle, not the driver. That's your job else you'll be heading for 6 points and hefty fine.

This post has been edited by peterguk: Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:59


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Dave3716
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 23:07
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QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:58) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43) *
So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?


See post no. 2. Or don't bother asking for photos and just name yourself as the driver. Either way you are obliged to name yourself with 28 days.


Thank you smile.gif

Just playing devils advocate, lets say the vehicle in question potentially had 2-3 different drivers that day, would they then have to provide a clear pic of the driver?



No. The photos are to identify the vehicle, not the driver. That's your job else you'll be heading for 6 points and hefty fine.



ok great, thank you for your help, I will keep you updated smile.gif
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Jlc
post Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 23:09
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The shot will be of the rear of the car. Seems unlikely they'll be a clear shot of the driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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superSmiffy
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 09:00
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QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43) *
So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?


See post no. 2. Or don't bother asking for photos and just name yourself as the driver. Either way you are obliged to name yourself with 28 days.


Thank you smile.gif

Just playing devils advocate, lets say the vehicle in question potentially had 2-3 different drivers that day, would they then have to provide a clear pic of the driver?

Well as you “strongly remember” the limit being 40 at the time, I figure that you would also remember who was driving the Ford van at 13:30:55 on 2/11/2017 Tibshelf northbound. You seem to be suggesting you were driving at the OP, why have you forgotten now? Then again, as you have the speed limit wrong your recall may be faulty.

Just playing devil’s advocate you understand.

This post has been edited by superSmiffy: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 09:02
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southpaw82
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 11:32
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QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 09:00) *
why have you forgotten now?

I don’t think he has, he’s merely asked a hypothetical question.


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Any comments made do not constitute legal advice and should not be relied upon. No lawyer/client relationship should be assumed nor should any duty of care be owed.
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The Rookie
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 12:46
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QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 10:00) *
Just playing devil’s advocate

An expression you don't seem to understand the meaning of.......


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There is no such thing as a law abiding motorist, just those who have been scammed and those yet to be scammed!

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Dave3716
post Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 22:34
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QUOTE (superSmiffy @ Tue, 28 Nov 2017 - 09:00) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:53) *
QUOTE (peterguk @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:47) *
QUOTE (Dave3716 @ Mon, 27 Nov 2017 - 22:43) *
So, what would be my best course of action? ive linked the letter in my original post. Do I admit I was the driver and see what they send back?


See post no. 2. Or don't bother asking for photos and just name yourself as the driver. Either way you are obliged to name yourself with 28 days.


Thank you smile.gif

Just playing devils advocate, lets say the vehicle in question potentially had 2-3 different drivers that day, would they then have to provide a clear pic of the driver?

Well as you “strongly remember” the limit being 40 at the time, I figure that you would also remember who was driving the Ford van at 13:30:55 on 2/11/2017 Tibshelf northbound. You seem to be suggesting you were driving at the OP, why have you forgotten now? Then again, as you have the speed limit wrong your recall may be faulty.

Just playing devil’s advocate you understand.


I think you need to read what I wrote originally. I remember it being 60, not 40.

I was merely asking what proof was needed from the police to prosecute the driver.
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Dave3716
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 22:13
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Hi, Ive had the conditional offer of fixed penalty, £100 fine and 3 points. I'm relieved its not anything more, however they have sent no evidence of the VSL sign or such like, am I able to request this now?
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Jlc
post Tue, 12 Dec 2017 - 22:23
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You can ask for what you like but they are under no obligation to provide it.

As the CoFP has been issued you either accept that or the matter refers to court.

It will be a lot more at court unless you have a defence.

Did you follow advice in post #2? This has to be done prior to naming the driver.


--------------------
RK=Registered Keeper, OP=Original Poster (You!), CoFP=Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty, NtK=Notice to Keeper, NtD=Notice to Driver
PoFA=Protection of Freedoms Act, SAC=Safety Awareness Course, NIP=Notice of Intended Prosecution, ADR=Alternative Dispute Resolution
PPC=Private Parking Company, LBCCC=Letter Before County Court Claim, PII=Personally Identifiable Information

Private Parking - remember, they just want your money and will say almost anything to get it.
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